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Chief Joseph
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Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 7710 | TRs | Pics
Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
Just to clarify, I do agree that there are "Problem Animals" like say a bear that has developed a taste for human flesh and are very likely to seek to kill again, I just think that it is extremely narrow minded to think that we need to kill every single animal that has attacked a human and especially so if that animal is protecting it's young.
I watched a Youtube video about a hiker that was attacked by a full grown cougar and they had a vicious fight and the guy was able to stab the cougar and it ran away. In the case it would have likely done the same, that being ran off, never to be seen again....but no, let's just kill everything because we are the Great and Powerful Humans, the Supreme Beings. 
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
 Gwen
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Gwen
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 3597 | TRs | Pics
Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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 Wed Feb 21, 2024 2:58 pm |
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| treeswarper wrote: | | Also, when I think of "everybody" packing in the woods, it scares me. I've had a couple of run ins with unsafe shooters while working. There's nothing like coming around a corner to see a target set up and folks getting ready to shoot in your direction --No backstop. Then there's the Walupt Lake East Lewis County shooting. |
Exactly!
Maybe I have missed the threads where a member here was attacked by a cougar. I mean actually attacked, not just sighted one that they thought might attack them. With all the members and all the time spent in the backcountry and yet I cannot recall one incident that a member here reported an honest to goodness cougar attack on themselves. If I missed it I am sure someone will remind us all of it.
On the other hand, I can recall several threads about dangerous gunfire. There's even one active thread about it now. I myself have had two brushes with people dangerously firing weapons in my direction.
So carry that heavy firearm to protect yourself from cougars and such. Hell, carry a hammer and a keyboard too.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Dave Workman
Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 3699 | TRs | Pics
Location: In the woods, by the big tree |
| treeswarper wrote: | | Also, when I think of "everybody" packing in the woods, it scares me. I've had a couple of run ins with unsafe shooters while working. There's nothing like coming around a corner to see a target set up and folks getting ready to shoot in your direction --No backstop. Then there's the Walupt Lake East Lewis County shooting. |
I'm not one to promote "everybody" packing in the woods. Doesn't scare me but I've been fairly miffed once or twice.  But it's a legal option, and shouldn't be frowned upon or dismissed as paranoid.
Nobody I know could ever condone the Walupt Lake incident. I've hiked that trail.
In the situation under discussion, the victim's companions did the best they could with what they had, and they still requested someone with a gun, so I'll let everybody sort that one out to their own comfort level.
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
Joseph
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
Joseph
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thunderhead
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Joined: 14 Oct 2015
Posts: 1521 | TRs | Pics
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| Chief Joseph wrote: | | What makes humans so damn special? |
Because i am human. Everyone I care about is human.
Mountainfisherman, Dave Workman, Joseph
Mountainfisherman, Dave Workman, Joseph |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006
Posts: 11280 | TRs | Pics
Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Thu Feb 22, 2024 7:26 am |
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| Dave Workman wrote: | | I'm not one to promote "everybody" packing in the woods. Doesn't scare me but I've been fairly miffed once or twice. But it's a legal option, and shouldn't be frowned upon or dismissed as paranoid.
Nobody I know could ever condone the Walupt Lake incident. I've hiked that trail.
In the situation under discussion, the victim's companions did the best they could with what they had, and they still requested someone with a gun, so I'll let everybody sort that one out to their own comfort level. |
Well, when a fire starts, we request help for that. We don't strap a pissbag on our backs to pack around all day. We don't carry a porta tank around all the time. Both are things that could save lives. Do you pack a stretcher around to pack out an injured person? Or would you phone for help? Sort that out. In my opinion, and I am definitely a rural person who worked out in the scary woods, folks now need to have training to pack a gun around. There's too many manly wannabes who don't have a clue--the Walupt Lake shooter is an excellent example of that. It always made me very uneasy to have to work in an area and hearing gunshots. How far away are they? What direction are they pointing? Do they even know any gun safety rules? And lastly, what is their frame of mind. I've been flagged down by hunters to help them figure out where they are and have had to ask that they not have their gun barrels pointing in my direction. Elk season? One stays in a noisy active logging unit or stays out of the woods. However, with the population increase, the year round shooters have increased.
I get nervous when I see people packing in the local Walmart. I don't know them , I don't know their state of mind, and I don't know their skill level or training. It's the same outdoors.
It isn't a Pat McManus world any more.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Dave Workman
Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 3699 | TRs | Pics
Location: In the woods, by the big tree |
| treeswarper wrote: | | Dave Workman wrote: | | I'm not one to promote "everybody" packing in the woods. Doesn't scare me but I've been fairly miffed once or twice. But it's a legal option, and shouldn't be frowned upon or dismissed as paranoid.
Nobody I know could ever condone the Walupt Lake incident. I've hiked that trail.
In the situation under discussion, the victim's companions did the best they could with what they had, and they still requested someone with a gun, so I'll let everybody sort that one out to their own comfort level. |
Well, when a fire starts, we request help for that. We don't strap a pissbag on our backs to pack around all day. We don't carry a porta tank around all the time. Both are things that could save lives. Do you pack a stretcher around to pack out an injured person? Or would you phone for help? Sort that out. In my opinion, and I am definitely a rural person who worked out in the scary woods, folks now need to have training to pack a gun around. There's too many manly wannabes who don't have a clue--the Walupt Lake shooter is an excellent example of that. It always made me very uneasy to have to work in an area and hearing gunshots. How far away are they? What direction are they pointing? Do they even know any gun safety rules? And lastly, what is their frame of mind. I've been flagged down by hunters to help them figure out where they are and have had to ask that they not have their gun barrels pointing in my direction. Elk season? One stays in a noisy active logging unit or stays out of the woods. However, with the population increase, the year round shooters have increased.
I get nervous when I see people packing in the local Walmart. I don't know them , I don't know their state of mind, and I don't know their skill level or training. It's the same outdoors.
It isn't a Pat McManus world any more. |
Well, you've expressed your comfort level. And I'm okay with that.
Just don't expect everyone to agree or disagree with everything you've said.
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
Chief Joseph
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
Chief Joseph
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Malachai Constant
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 16100 | TRs | Pics
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
When did this turn into a packing discussion? I thought they were banned 
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
RumiDude
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
RumiDude
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 3597 | TRs | Pics
Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:26 am |
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| Malachai Constant wrote: | | When did this turn into a packing discussion? I thought they were banned |
I second the sentiment.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Schroder
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Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 6723 | TRs | Pics
Location: on the beach |
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Schroder
Member
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Thu Feb 22, 2024 9:51 am |
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The closest I've ever been to a cougar was coming down the Shannon Ridge trail on Shuksan about 50 years ago. It was raining and foggy as I came down alone through a clearcut and stopped to rest on a log that was wedged against a giant old cedar stump. I heard something that turned my attention upward and I looked into the face of an adult cougar a couple of feet above me on top of the stump. I jumped away and the cougar took off the other direction. I think if I was his intended prey I wouldn't have been aware of it until he was on top of me & no protection I carried would have helped.
Bear spray works on cats if you have time to get it out.
SpookyKite89, Kascadia
SpookyKite89, Kascadia |
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HitTheTrail
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Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Posts: 5462 | TRs | Pics
Location: 509 |
On June 02, 2019 a cougar attacked a four year boy in Enchantment Park in downtown Leavenworth. Google it.
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Chief Joseph
Member
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 7710 | TRs | Pics
Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
| thunderhead wrote: | | Chief Joseph wrote: | | What makes humans so damn special? |
Because i am human. Everyone I care about is human. |
Not me. The more I know about people, the more that I love my cats.
| Dave Workman wrote: | | ]Well, you've expressed your comfort level. And I'm okay with that.
Just don't expect everyone to agree or disagree with everything you've said. |
Agreed, plus following that line of reasoning, there are a lot of people that should not be driving cars, they make me very nervous!
| treeswarper wrote: | | I get nervous when I see people packing in the local Walmart. |
Don't go to Walmart!
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Vertec
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Joined: 08 Sep 2018
Posts: 159 | TRs | Pics
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Vertec
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Thu Feb 22, 2024 12:36 pm |
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| RumiDude wrote: | | treeswarper wrote: | | Also, when I think of "everybody" packing in the woods, it scares me. I've had a couple of run ins with unsafe shooters while working. There's nothing like coming around a corner to see a target set up and folks getting ready to shoot in your direction --No backstop. Then there's the Walupt Lake East Lewis County shooting. |
Exactly!
Maybe I have missed the threads where a member here was attacked by a cougar. I mean actually attacked, not just sighted one that they thought might attack them. With all the members and all the time spent in the backcountry and yet I cannot recall one incident that a member here reported an honest to goodness cougar attack on themselves. If I missed it I am sure someone will remind us all of it.
On the other hand, I can recall several threads about dangerous gunfire. There's even one active thread about it now. I myself have had two brushes with people dangerously firing weapons in my direction.
So carry that heavy firearm to protect yourself from cougars and such. Hell, carry a hammer and a keyboard too.
Rumi |
Irresponsible target shooting is dangerous and would scare the crap out of anyone, but it's nothing compared to someone actually targeting you. I would also expect many people here have experienced close calls (or crashes) on the road caused by careless drivers. While such events are traumatic, they are different than experiencing a willful attempt to cause you deadly harm. The fear that you're "actually going to DIE" due to the willful actions of another person or animal is unique in a very strange way.
Unless you've actually encountered such a threat, it is difficult to understand what the people involved in this attack experienced. So be careful comparing what they went through to accidental close calls you may have experienced.
One point that hasn't been discussed is how the event could have been different if the two kits were still with their mother. Maybe mom would have steered them clear of the entire situation (probably), but I wouldn't want to have kit pinned under a bicycle with mom around.
During the event they would have had no idea if the mother was nearby or if the second kit would return (possibly with mom) to attack. Keeping that kit pinned must have been a terrifying experience, especially while "what else can go wrong now" was running through their minds.
Also consider the possibility that carrying deadly force could have saved the kit's life. If I came across the party with the cougar pinned I could not justify killing it even after it attacked a person - as long as the attack was minor and the victim wasn't missing parts that could possibly be recovered from the cougar. Given the danger of keeping a cougar pinned, it would have been reasonable to consider using the "cover" of deadly force to release it.
I'm offering comments with a perspective gained by 1: actually surviving an imminent (human, hours long) threat of deadly physical violence (while in the wilderness), and 2: completing extensive training (regular and continuing), in defensive use of deadly force. My training included live simulations involving real (professionally trained) instructors posing as armed deadly threats. The weapons used during these simulations were as close to the real deal as possible while still being non-lethal (NOT paintball or air soft). A wax projectile traveling full speed will sting. The bang it makes while aimed at you will make an impression.
The most interesting part of the sim training was receiving instructor feedback that they could tell I had been through a "real" situation. They're trained to "push" the simulation farther if they notice suggestive "tells" (if appropriate). The goal is to push the student into any real past "state of mind" they may have experienced, which makes the simulation feel almost as real as it gets. It works.
Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
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Dave Workman
Member
Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 3699 | TRs | Pics
Location: In the woods, by the big tree |
| Schroder wrote: | | Bear spray works on cats if you have time to get it out. |
Aren't there some "holsters" or pouches for bear spray? It would seem logical, so the cannister is within reach in the event it is needed. Something that would fit on a waist strap or hang on the outside of a pack.
Returning to the original discussion, the fact a cougar attacked a group of cyclists should be an attention getter for anyone venturing into this particular region. The guy who was killed back in 2018 was with another guy, and the cougar messed up the survivor pretty good as well.
There is no guarantee that a cat or other animal will simply run away when outnumbered or outsized. Recent history seems to pretty much clear up that debate. Five adults on bikes should impress animals purported to be spooked by people.
I'm not for shutting down a section of forest, but I am suggesting a bit more alertness by anyone visiting east King County. Both of these incidents happened within a few miles of where I live in North Bend. Last weekend's incident happened within a mile or so (as the crow flies) of the Snoqualmie Valley rifle range where the noise from shooting carries a long way, yet it doesn't seem to spook the wildlife. We've had deer walk right out onto the range while people were shooting!
When we were kids, we used to clip playing cards to our bikes so they would rattle in the spokes. Anything to make noise. Maybe that's one strategy to consider, even as corny as it might sound.
For traveling on foot, talk or sing loud! Wear a bell, blow a kazoo or a whistle every little while. Maybe the days of traveling the trails in tranquility are passed. I dunno. One thing I am sure of is that nobody here (with perhaps the exception of Chief Joseph  ) wants to be on the menu. In my case, the offending animal might suffer from food poisoning!
But Schroder has cracked the code on spray...and actually every other type of defensive tool: "if you have the time to get it out." In most cases of actual attack, they happen so fast, you might not have that necessary time.
For hiking, one might consider a stout walking stick, something of "club disposition."
Remember, animal attacks are rare. We may not see another one for a long time. Don't let this deter anyone from walking in the woods. And if you should encounter someone carrying a gun, or a Louisville slugger, or just a can of bear spray... just say Hi and make believe it's nothing. 
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
Anne Elk
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
Anne Elk
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pula58
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Joined: 13 Aug 2009
Posts: 589 | TRs | Pics
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pula58
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Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:07 pm |
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I am so glad that we have enough wild spaces to support a population of cougars. How amazing that we have lions in our forests!
The day the cougars are all gone (if it happens) would be a sad and deeply tragic day indeed. If the goal is to make everything completely safe our lives will be, essentially, ruined.
I wonder if they could have pepper sprayed the young cougar that attacked the bike riders? Maybe that would have been enough to dissuade the cougar from attached humans again.
Kascadia, Anne Elk, Cyclopath, snowmonkey
Kascadia, Anne Elk, Cyclopath, snowmonkey |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 3597 | TRs | Pics
Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:10 pm |
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| Vertec wrote: | RumiDudeInboxSearchAALogoutMembersFAQShop (Ad)
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Thu Feb 22, 2024 11:36 am Vertec wrote:
| RumiDude wrote: | | treeswarper wrote: | | Also, when I think of "everybody" packing in the woods, it scares me. I've had a couple of run ins with unsafe shooters while working. There's nothing like coming around a corner to see a target set up and folks getting ready to shoot in your direction --No backstop. Then there's the Walupt Lake East Lewis County shooting. |
Exactly!
Maybe I have missed the threads where a member here was attacked by a cougar. I mean actually attacked, not just sighted one that they thought might attack them. With all the members and all the time spent in the backcountry and yet I cannot recall one incident that a member here reported an honest to goodness cougar attack on themselves. If I missed it I am sure someone will remind us all of it.
On the other hand, I can recall several threads about dangerous gunfire. There's even one active thread about it now. I myself have had two brushes with people dangerously firing weapons in my direction.
So carry that heavy firearm to protect yourself from cougars and such. Hell, carry a hammer and a keyboard too.
Rumi |
Unless you've actually encountered such a threat, it is difficult to understand what the people involved in this attack experienced. So be careful comparing what they went through to accidental close calls you may have experienced. |
I didn't compare the experience of these people to that of mine or anyone else's experience with careless or even intentional gunfire. What I was trying to illustrate was that dangerous encounters with wildlife occur far less frequently than dangerous encounters with firearms in the backcountry. I have not done any research on this but my educated guess is that there are waaaaay more people killed or injured by firearms in the backcountry than by wildlife. I don't think it is remotely close. So while some here wring their hands over cougar and such, sometimes suggesting hunting and or harassing wildlife and others quick to point out they carry heavy firearms so as not to be eaten by cougars, it is people with guns they should really be worried about. They also resist any restrictions on firearms in the backcountry.
So backcountry users are much more likely to be killed or injured by careless or malicious people with firearms than by wildlife. My guess is that holds true for even grizzly areas.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
Anne Elk, Sculpin
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
Anne Elk, Sculpin
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