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Chief Joseph
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Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 7710 | TRs | Pics
Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
 Anne Elk, Dave Workman
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Vertec
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Joined: 08 Sep 2018
Posts: 159 | TRs | Pics
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Vertec
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 Thu Feb 22, 2024 2:57 pm |
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| RumiDude wrote: | | I have not done any research on this but my educated guess is that there are waaaaay more people killed or injured by firearms in the backcountry than by wildlife. I don't think it is remotely close. So while some here wring their hands over cougar and such, sometimes suggesting hunting and or harassing wildlife and others quick to point out they carry heavy firearms so as not to be eaten by cougars, it is people with guns they should really be worried about. They also resist any restrictions on firearms in the backcountry.
So backcountry users are much more likely to be killed or injured by careless or malicious people with firearms than by wildlife. My guess is that holds true for even grizzly areas. |
Please do some research. There is no statistically significant data to support your position regarding backcountry shootings.
But even if there was data supporting your position, it would not justify infringing on the constitutional, and basic natural right to armed self defense. You can't take away the right to armed self defense because it would eliminate the right to defend against another person with evil intent (armed or not, people have been killed by unarmed violence). Our right to life is a natural right granted exclusively by our creator, government attempts to infringe the right of armed self defense amount to "tyranny by proxy"; the proxy being an animal, human, or any unprovoked threat. Government does not guarantee any right to personal security, believing it even can is naive.
I'm sure many people claim to be harmed by freedom of speech but any amount of "hurt feelings" would not justify creating laws to limit free speech. Certain forms of speech are illegal (e.g. threatening speech, slander), but no one would accept laws restricting the type of communication equipment you can acquire because you might slander or threaten someone. The 1st amendment was enacted well before the invention of modern communication equipment, and no one questions its use is protected.
Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
Posts: 3597 | TRs | Pics
Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Thu Feb 22, 2024 3:47 pm |
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| Vertec wrote: | | Please do some research. There is no statistically significant data to support your position regarding backcountry shootings.
But even if there was data supporting your position, it would not justify infringing on the constitutional, and basic natural right to armed self defense. |
Again you miss my point, but I ain't gonna bother trying to get it across to you.
Rumi~the misunderstood~Dude
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Vertec
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Joined: 08 Sep 2018
Posts: 159 | TRs | Pics
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Vertec
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Thu Feb 22, 2024 4:51 pm |
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| RumiDude wrote: | | Vertec wrote: | | Please do some research. There is no statistically significant data to support your position regarding backcountry shootings.
But even if there was data supporting your position, it would not justify infringing on the constitutional, and basic natural right to armed self defense. |
Again you miss my point, but I ain't gonna bother trying to get it across to you.
Rumi~the misunderstood~Dude |
Maybe your point had something to do with dangerous encounters with firearms? If so what about knifes?
Lucky for me, I spotted a knife wielding psycho well before he was able to catch me.
I can't imagine what this poor woman went through:
She's hero for telling her story.
P.S. My wife's cousin is an anesthesiologist working in London, UK. They perform a lot of these surgeries.
Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
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Vertec
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Joined: 08 Sep 2018
Posts: 159 | TRs | Pics
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Vertec
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Thu Feb 22, 2024 5:42 pm |
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Say hello to mom:
I think she was more pissed about the hiker assuming her cubs were bobcats.
"Hey idiot, do I look like a bobcat?"
Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
Chief Joseph
Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
Chief Joseph
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Chief Joseph
Member
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 7710 | TRs | Pics
Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Vertec
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Joined: 08 Sep 2018
Posts: 159 | TRs | Pics
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Vertec
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Sat Feb 24, 2024 12:32 am |
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New reporting:
Turns out the cougar was clamped on to the victim for quite some time. Her "teammates" had it pinned and were trying to persuade it to let go by hitting it on the head with rocks.
Using bear spray on the cougar at that point also would have hit the victim. Wonder how that would have felt given her serious injuries.
Hope she makes a full recovery.
Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
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Sculpin
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Joined: 23 Apr 2015
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Sculpin
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Sat Feb 24, 2024 7:32 am |
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| Vertec wrote: | | There is no statistically significant data to support your position regarding backcountry shootings. |
This is true. But it has nothing to do with guns or cougars or bears. No, the reason that backcountry shootings are not more dangerous than wildlife is this:
"During 2011–2021, a total of 788 deaths from hornet, wasp, and bee stings occurred (an average of 72 deaths per year)."
Most folks don't realize that being allergic is not necessary. Your immune system can overreact to a single sting even if you have been stung numerous times before. If a rational person made a rational list of the ten items most likely to keep them alive in the backcountry, an epi-pen might make the list but a gun surely would not, unless you know in advance that you are likely to encounter polar bears.
Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
 RumiDude, snowmonkey
Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
RumiDude, snowmonkey
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Dave Workman
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Joined: 06 Aug 2006
Posts: 3699 | TRs | Pics
Location: In the woods, by the big tree |
| Sculpin wrote: | | If a rational person made a rational list of the ten items most likely to keep them alive in the backcountry, an epi-pen might make the list but a gun surely would not, unless you know in advance that you are likely to encounter polar bears. |
Well, not to rain on anyone's parade, but guns have actually kept people alive in the back country on several occasions. I know of at least three defensive shootings of bears in Alaska (I wrote about two of them), all with handguns. The bear that killed Treadwell was also shot in a defensive situation by park rangers or Alaska DFG officers, IIRC.
An epi-pen is a good thing to have in your kit, no argument there.
If you don't like guns, don't have one. Nobody has said you must; it's always been an individual choice far as I'm concerned. Just don't sneer at people if they do choose a firearm as part of their gear. 
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
Chief Joseph
"The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic, and a killer. It has never yet melted." - D.H. Lawrence
Chief Joseph
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Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
Posts: 12837 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Sat Feb 24, 2024 2:16 pm |
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I'm coming in late, and not bothering to read through five pages of speculations and conjecture, but I have to wonder if anyone considered the incident in the Banner State Forest (near Manchester) in which a cyclist was attacked by a black bear?
Do wild animals have a thing about things that go round and round? Or just noisy things that come up out of nowhere and surprise them?
More speculation and conjecture, of course. 
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Chief Joseph
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Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 7710 | TRs | Pics
Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
I would say that it's simply that they see cyclists as prey as someone mentioned earlier, the movement they see as the prey trying to escape, triggering their fight or flight instinct.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Gwen
LO Girl-of-the-Month
Joined: 14 Feb 2010
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Gwen
LO Girl-of-the-Month
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Sat Feb 24, 2024 3:04 pm |
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| Dave Workman wrote: | | “We need a helicopter on location and we need someone with a gun to kill the cougar. We are right now we have a bicycle on top of the cougar and he's fighting back.” |
Well f**k, if you had me pinned down with a bike, I'd fight back too. Can't help but wonder if they'd let the cat up, would it have run away? I say likely. As for the one that got away... It seems it's only crime was being present when the kitten attached the cyclist. I've heard no mention of it stalking or attacking as well. So we should shoot it just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time (although this IS its home).
We all can armchair referee the situation ad infinitum, but we weren't there and we don't really know. Still, I'm quite sad to see an animal lose its life because of an human contact. You are free to agree or not.
Tomorrow's not promised to anyone, so be bold, scare yourself, attempt something with no guarantee of success. You'll be amazed at what you can achieve. -Olive McGloin
Anne Elk  Chief Joseph
Tomorrow's not promised to anyone, so be bold, scare yourself, attempt something with no guarantee of success. You'll be amazed at what you can achieve. -Olive McGloin
Anne Elk Chief Joseph
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Ski
><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005
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Location: tacoma |
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Ski
><((((°>
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Sat Feb 24, 2024 3:31 pm |
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^ thanks, Gwen.
Again, coming in late here.
I heard this story while out of town. The first broadcast didn't mention the location - only "Pacific Northwest".
A couple hours later the broadcast mentioned "Fall City".
My immediate thought was that study cited here in a thread somewhere - that posited a possible cause for what we are perceiving to be an increasing frequency of cougar-human encounters might well possibly be the consequence of the removal of older, more experienced cats from the cat population, leaving the unknowing juveniles to their own devices.
If you did that with humans, imagine what would happen.
I don't believe it's the cats that are the problem here.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Anne Elk, Chief Joseph
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Anne Elk, Chief Joseph
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HitTheTrail
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Joined: 30 Oct 2007
Posts: 5462 | TRs | Pics
Location: 509 |
I carried an epi-pen for years and then was told by a medical professional that if you need one you probably also need an ER and you could just be getting yourself in more trouble. Kind of like cutting a rattlesnake bite to let the venom out and bleeding to death.
I ski with several medical people who tell me it's probably not a bad idea to carry strong antihistamine tablets. Some type of prescription or extra strength OTC Benadryl.
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Chief Joseph
Member
Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 7710 | TRs | Pics
Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
| Gwen wrote: | | Dave Workman wrote: | | “We need a helicopter on location and we need someone with a gun to kill the cougar. We are right now we have a bicycle on top of the cougar and he's fighting back.” |
Well f**k, if you had me pinned down with a bike, I'd fight back too. Can't help but wonder if they'd let the cat up, would it have run away? I say likely. As for the one that got away... It seems it's only crime was being present when the kitten attached the cyclist. I've heard no mention of it stalking or attacking as well. So we should shoot it just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time (although this IS its home).
We all can armchair referee the situation ad infinitum, but we weren't there and we don't really know. Still, I'm quite sad to see an animal lose its life because of an human contact. You are free to agree or not. |
I agree that it would have very likely run away, but as Gwen said, we can only speculate since we weren't there.
One thing is for sure, the cougar population has increased as has the number of people out in the woods, so the frequency of attacks will likely increase. Especially if you appear to be prey, such as biking or maybe running. I won't be doing either one out in the woods, but I will take measure to protect myself and I will only kill an animal if I feel that it's absolutely necessary.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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