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#19
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#19
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PostThu Aug 08, 2002 10:54 am 
Some of you may remember that I got a $50 ticket in the Cle Elum area earlier this summer. I paid. Didn't want to waste my time "fighting city hall" or travel to eastern Wash just for that. Plus, the fine print said if I didn't pay it would be reported to the DMV of my state. So I'm back in the same district a few weeks after my ticket and my friend only gets one of those yellow envelopes that ask you to send in $5. Man i was disappointed. I was looking forward to my buddy getting a $50 fine like I did. I had to pay, so he should have to pay. You all should have to pay! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif biggrin.gif Good Luck with the lady ranger Pbear. Nothing like a gal in uniform, eh? up.gif

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Tom
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PostThu Aug 08, 2002 12:47 pm 
Pappy, maybe you can do some creative artwork with the annual pass I left in your car. I think it expires on Saturday but I'm pretty sure you could get another 2 months out of it converting the 8 to a 10. suuure.gif

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Quark
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PostThu Aug 08, 2002 2:12 pm 
So - lemme get this straight: You don't pay $30 for an annual pass for whatever reason, and end up paying a $50 fine with the possibility of more fines? I'm no rocket scientist, but the math proves you didn't come out ahead on the deal. Of course, neither did the forest service - patrolling costs, admin costs and record-keeping likely washed out the $50. This may be one reason the pass went from $25 to $30. Looks like they may have to jack it up again next year, if this keeps up... I know, I know....it's the principle. If paying more than the required $30 is what floats your boat, then more power to you.

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#19
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PostThu Aug 08, 2002 3:31 pm 
Quark, I was paying nothing and getting away with it. That ain't rocket science either. But I will conform and pay in the future. After I forge the date on the pass Tom left in my car. Thanks for the reminder. wink.gif

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Slide Alder Slayer
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PostThu Aug 08, 2002 7:56 pm 
Long Arm Of The Law!
There are two ways you get in trouble by not paying these tickets, or a least requesting a hearing with the Court before the time printed on the ticket for you to appeal expires. First, as already mentioned above, is the ticket tied to the DMV. If so and you ignore the ticket, DOL could revoke your license. Second, what is your credit rating worth? If you ignore the ticket it will be turned over to Allied Credit with an appropriate increase to cover their collection fees and you will get a ding on your credit report. Think you’re upset now; wait until Allied gets a hold of you! I strongly recommend either appeal directly for a court date or mitigation hearing or pay the ticket.

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Bushwacker
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PostThu Aug 08, 2002 8:55 pm 
It appears this man knows what he's talking about. It's both amazing and sad that so many agencies can get a piece of you in order to make your life hell...all over a parking violation mad.gif BW

"Wait by the river long enough and the bodies of your enemies will float by"...Sun Tsu
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polarbear
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PostSat Aug 10, 2002 1:27 pm 
Why should recreating in our forests be about doing math at all? shakehead.gif How complicated do we want to make the simple things in life? The way it was before: I pay my taxes. The trails get maintained. The way it is now: I pay my taxes. I pay user fees. The user fees help pay for people driving up roads to check passes and write ticktes. The trails get maintained. shakehead.gif shakehead.gif shakehead.gif

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Jim
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PostMon Sep 02, 2002 2:15 am 
I won't pay
The sort of trails I typically visit are still not getting maintained. That doesn't stop some lackey driving around in a new Forest Service truck from sticking those yellow fee envelopes on the windshield though. I know folks that have gotten the $50 citations and have ignored the subsequent mailings and not had anyone follow up. A court case in Arizona resulted in a ruling that they have to observe the driver leaving or returning to the vehicle to verify they were "recreating". Until they turn it into a parking violation rather than a recreation fee, I can't see how they have much power to do much to you unless they observe you. The person who drove the car there (who theoretically would be resposible for paying a fee) might not be the owner of the vehicle. Otherwise they are assuming a presumption of "guilty" which is a significant shift away from the "innocent until proven guilty" doctrine.

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Dslayer
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PostTue Sep 03, 2002 11:11 am 
Jim- Do you have a reference for that Arizona case-I'm about to go to war over my ticket--got the notice to appear a/o to pay the collateral and I'm tempted to go down to court to me the individual who wrote the ticket--If nothing else I'll manage to fo to court and make an ass of myself about this issue.

"The Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights is my concealed weapon permit."-Ted Nugent
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Dante
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PostWed Sep 04, 2002 3:27 pm 
Googleman to the rescue?
I just typed 36 CFR 261.15 into Google and this is the first thing that popped up: http://www.nepfa.org/TTcase.html Excerpts from trial: US v. "TT" (01/14/00), Concord NH -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- (Forest Fee case; date of alleged offense: Nov. 6. 1999) "TT" = Defendant "JM" = Magistrate Judge Muirhead (presiding). "FF" = Forest Service officer/witness who ticketed TT. ***************** * [At beginning of the trial, JM advises TT of his right to remain silent: e.g., "You need not say anything to anyone in this matter," etc.] FF [Describing process of ticketing someone and the form displayed at trailheads and/or to be left on cars, etc.]: "That form says, 'Failure to deposit correct payment or to display a forest-wide parking pass violates 36 CFR 261.15 and may result in a fine not to exceed $100.'" JM: 'Where in 36 CFR 261.15 does it say that failure to display a parking pass is a violation? I have been unable to find it." [They look up 36 CFR 261.15.] JM: [referring to the form referred to above by FF]: "It says, 'failure to deposit correct payment or to display a forest-wide parking pass violates CFR 261.15' and I asked, 'Where in CFR 261.15 it requires that any parking pass be displayed?'. FAILURE TO PAY is what the offense is." [Having made this point, JM tells them to proceed. FF proceeds with his testimony about process of how cars are ticketed: FF checks to find who the car belongs to and then issues "probable cause statement", etc.] [TT accepts offer to testify, and condemns the fees. Finally he is asked directly by the prosecutor if he was there on that date, saw the signs, and refused to pay. TT admits this.] JM: "Mr. [TT], Unfortunately for the Forest Service, Congress has taken upon itself to underfund their needs. I, with you, think the Forest Service does a pretty outstanding job. But it becomes hard to provide the amenities and do their job when Congress provides inadequate funds. "Congress permitted the adoption of this particular provision establishing fees for various uses, and I suppose you could argue with what the forest service has chosen is a reasonable fee or isn't - - $3 or not. "But the fact of the matter is that it IS the law. I will tell you, had you chosen not to testify, I would have dismissed it. I told you you didn't have to; you did, and during your testimony you acknowledged to me that in fact you didn't pay the fee. "But the difficulty here is this: there is nothing in that regulation that requires anybody to post anything on their automobile. And if the Forest Service wants to prove that somebody hasn't paid the fee, they're going to have to prove that there was no daily payment made, that there was no weekly payment made, and there was no season payment made. And if they fail to do that, they have not proved their case. And during the State's case they really haven't done that, so you sort of filled in the gaps. "And without that, it does not establish probable cause in any single ticket. And I have been dismissing these left and right when people don't show up [in court], because they DON'T state probable cause, on the face of them, most of the time. "But I have no choice, based on the evidence that I have heard, but to find you guilty under the evidence." [The Prosecutor asked for a fine of $50 (and there is an automatic asssesment of $5). TT said he would not pay the $55. At some point here the court adjourned for a few minutes. TT was led out by the marshalls; JM went out of the courtroom. Court reconvened about 10-15 minutes later. JM asked, "Are we back on the record?" JM then outlined TT's various options: pay the $55, or else risk contempt-of- court charges, arrest, possible shipment to Oklahoma, etc. TT began to protest about his having been invited to tesify and express his opinions. JM broke in:] JM: "The piece of evidence that was crucial to the government YOU supplied. They hadn't established that you hadn't paid the fee. YOU'RE the one that told me you didn't pay the fee. So I had no choice but to find you guilty. I told you you didn't have to testify. I can't tell you how to try your case!" [TT finally agreed to pay the $55, and the trial ended with a back-and- forth exchange between JM and TT, in which JM noted that many people object to the fees and that he'd had alot of problems with them, "but I am neither the Congress, nor am I the Forest Service. I am just a judge ... I certainly would encourage you to write your congressmen, write the US Senators." He concluded by noting that the president had just designated alot of federal lands for protection, to be overseen by the Forest Service and the Park Service, but speculated that Congress wouldn't give them adequate money to do the job there, either.] Trial ended. ***************** ******** These excerpts were privately transcribed from the official court audiotape, which was purchased from Federal District Court in Concord, NH. (Emphasis added)

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Stefan
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PostWed Sep 04, 2002 3:35 pm 
FIGHT THE TICKET!!!!!!!!!!! I had something similar happen to me while parking in Tacoma on a regular street. Sign said "No parking north of here." I was south of the sign. However, this is what I did: I took a picture of my car parked south of the sign. It held up in court. Make another trip to Spider Meadow. Take a picture of your car parked in front of the sign. It will show the judge you made an effort. And remember this everyone. STOP PAYING FOR THE TRAIL PASSES AND SOMEBODY WILL GET THE MESSAGE!!!!!

Art is an adventure.
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Dante
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PostWed Sep 04, 2002 3:49 pm 
More interesting stuff:
http://www.wildwilderness.org/docs/tips.htm <- This one has some particularly interesting information. http://www.wildwilderness.org/docs/siart.htm http://www.tom-morrow-land.com/feedemocase.html [Code of Federal Regulations] [Title 36, Volume 2] [Revised as of July 1, 2001] From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access [CITE: 36CFR261.15] [Page 345] TITLE 36--PARKS, FORESTS, AND PUBLIC PROPERTY CHAPTER II--FOREST SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE PART 261--PROHIBITIONS--Table of Contents Subpart A--General Prohibitions Sec. 261.15 Admission, recreation use and special recreation permit fees. Failing to pay any fee established for admission or entrance to or use of a site, facility, equipment or service furnished by the United States is prohibited. The maximum fine shall not exceed $100. (Sec. 2, 78 Stat. 897, as amended; 16 U.S.C. 460l-6(e)) [46 FR 33520, June 30, 1981] [[Page 346]] (Emphasis added)

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Dante
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PostWed Sep 04, 2002 3:52 pm 
Failing to pay is the violation. The government has the burden of proof. You do not have to prove anything. You certainly don't have to testify or incriminate yourself. If you "take the 5th" the government has to prove you did not pay. They probably can't. For example, if you bought a pass (and complied with 36 CFR 261.15) but forgot to bring it to the trailhead you would be innocent. The government has to prove you did not pay. You don't have to do anything. Unless you testify and say you did not buy a pass you win. Even if the government searched it's system and found no evidence of your payment, I doubt a maginstrate would accept that absence of evidence as proof that you did not pay. Hmm . . I wonder how they would respond to an "I forgot my pass" note on the dash wink.gif

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Newt
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PostWed Sep 04, 2002 7:57 pm 
Fight it all the way. Make em prove you're guilty. That's the way the justice system is supposed to work. If not, then try to have it thrown out of court. Tell the damn FS to take a hike. Where's their pass? If it was truely a user fee then ALL recreationalist would have to wear a pass on the outside of their clothing. Just as a shell fish permit. Clearly visible. Parking is one thing, using is another. Just start parking away from the trail head and walk the extra mile. That's what you're there for any way. Walking? If you get a ticket tell em you had car trouble and headed for help. I really gotta quit now as I'm getting more heated. I'm wanting a warm G@#. NN down.gif

It's pretty safe to say that if we take all of man kinds accumulated knowledge, we still don't know everything. So, I hope you understand why I don't believe you know everything. But then again, maybe you do.
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Dslayer
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PostWed Sep 04, 2002 8:37 pm 
The semi incredible part of my story, too, is that I stopped at this particular trailhead to answer a call of nature...aka....the big job, but the toilet there is a mess so I decided to go into the forest, but well on the other side of a pack trail that leads up from the Indian Creek horse camp. This took some time, of course, and I did take the liberty of looking around for elk sign...got back to my pickup and there was a ticket...I did have to appreciate the irony. Thanks for the advice.

"The Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights is my concealed weapon permit."-Ted Nugent
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