[All Time Eater]

Hmmm... I don't see anything in Wanderer's prose indicating anything offensive or combative. Maybe a joke or two. Lighten up, you guys. I spend lots of time off trail. I use both the compass and altimeter -- and both frequently. Not being a lake bagger like Mr. Curtis, but a peak bagger, I often need to know where I am on the mountain. So I've found the need for checking bearings lots and lots of times. Altitude ain't good enough -- I might be 1/4 the way around the wrong side of the mountain. If you are on well-marked trails (which the original post seemed to be about), an altimeter or compass can be used to locate yourself. For the mathematically-inclined, here is how it works: There are two unknowns: latitude and longitude. If you can sight one known feature, and get one bearing, then you know you are on a line. There's your first unknown. With a second bearing you have yourself located on that line -- the second unknown. Or with an altitude you may be able to locate yourself on that line. Second unknown -- possible multiple solutions. Just like your old buddy the quadratic equation (or aquatic libation). Thus the whole discussion is as easy as pi (an irrational number, which reminds me of a certain loudmouth "expert" who posts here frequently). Hey, how about some of you lame-o's read the CONTENT of posts, and quit worrying about WHO wrote it, whether they have registered with the FBI, and whether their attempts at HUMOR are personal attacks?

[Malachai Constant]

I waited to get home to comment (I do not allow cookies at work for anyone ). Face it if it is clear and you are on a trail you do not require anything for navigation, even a map. When push comes to shove I rank 1. GPS ( yeah boo hiss ). 2. Map compass and altimeter. 3. Altimeter (with map). 4. Compass (with map). 5. Map alone 6. Compass alone 7. Altimeter alone. The reason being that gps has altimeter and map built in. An altimeter give you one coordinate even in fog. Compass does not. The compass will give you a rough idea if you are headed in the right direction but no location unless you can take a bearing. You usually can go down a trail to a known elevation and get a lovcation with an altimeter. As far as bashing this is nothing compareed to cc or any newsgroup. Yeah I know my spellin is lousy

[Allison]

[Newt]

for land I can't say I would consider an altimeter as essential. What I would consider essential is a map. Published or hand drawn. Without a map how do you even know what area you are in? With a map you can still determine your approximate location which I would find to be the most important. You would still be able to determine approx. North and get a fix on your approx. location. Essential #1 Next I would add the compass to the map to fine tune things. Now you can save some footsteps. Essential #2 Now the gps (w/topo) would be very essential in cloud cover or whiteout. With the backtrack feature you can at least follow your tracks back out. Trail or not. But I consider the topo as a map. Essential #3 To me the altimeter adds the 3rd dimension to your location and where you may want or need to do a turn or 2. You still need a map to do this unless your memory is like a photograph. I really don't think I have anyway of determining where I am with just it. Just #4. If I were to be dropped off in the middle of nowhere I want a minimum of a map of the area, add a compass, then a GPS, then GPS with topo. In clear weather, maps are basic navigation aids. Add a compass you can get to and from anywhere. If you're thinking that the GPS is essential for your rescue then you best throw in a cell phone and hope it works. Otherwise no one will know where you are except you. We all use these aids in our own way for our own reason. But think, what do you really need to get in and back out? The rest just make it easier. Map and compass, tried and true for centuries. My nickels worth NN

[Malachai Constant]

I never assume any rescue except self rescue. If there is one that is a bonus .

[The Wanderer]

[The Wanderer]

[-lol-]

[The Wanderer]

[The Wanderer]

[Steve e]

[Altimeter user]

[McPilchuck]

When I go into the mountains, I always have an altimeter and a compass as well as a map, rarely do I use anything except the map, but I like the comfort of knowing I have those tools in the pack. I wouldn't use a GPS if someone paid me. Having said all that, the best knowledge of where you are going is learning route skills and know where you've been, that is, remember the ground you have covered, keep it in your head. When my father and grandfather took me into the mountains and woods, they never used anything except the ground upon which they walked, fog or no fog, a map was used on occasion, but the gound one covered was always the rule...to this day I still use their wisdom in that teaching which dates back 40+ years of mountain adventures in my life. "Food for thought"

[Brian Curtis]

[Randy]

Just wanted to speak up in support of what Brian has said as I agree with all of his points. I manage to crawl around one or maybe two off-trail routes each year and always have the map, compass, and altimeter along for the ride. The map gets used more than any other instrument, and I use the altimeter to get myself that second unknown more than a compass regardless of whether I'm going after a peak or a lake. The compass comes out when navigating a route in the fog or at night. With unpredictable weather and all the things that can go wrong and delay a trip the compass is definitely an "essential" tool for me to carry. Even more frequently than looking at the map, I pay attention to the terrain in front of and behind me. On the way in, I memorize certain obvious benchmarks that will allow me to back-track my route if needed. On a descent, I'll often play the game of trying to retrace the exact same route I used on the ascent which forces me to pay extra close attention to what I see during the trip in. Quite obviously this doesn't help me to get anywhere on an ascent, but is an efficient technique for finding the car again and a means of not getting myself disoriented.