[Bushwacker]

Had the oppurtunity yesterday while hiking the Chain Lakes to gather some information on parking violations at trailheads. According to the ranger that we questioned, here are the facts. It's going to get a little confusing, but that should'nt be surprising, seeing as we're dealing with the government. Failing to display your TH pass will result in a $5 fine sometimes. Any ranger can site you for this infraction. It is not a parking violation! It is a trailhead user fee violation. Could'nt or would'nt give any info on what happens if you don't pay the $5. As we all know there are some rangers patrolling out there that have special training in law enforcement. These are the individuals that are writing the $50 tickets. If it is your bad luck to have one of these rangers write your ticket, it is considered a parking violation. Failure to pay this ticket and the DMV gets involved. Kind of a neat deal, don't you think? A law with a violation based on what kind of ranger you get! This is now a different version of the enforcement policies over what was previously posted concerning this topic! Kind of curious if anyone else has gotten this kind of info. as well. BW

[RainierRidgeRunner]

I'm curious too BW. Also what happens if you forget to display your pass and get a ticket? Do you go to the local ranger office or is there alot of red tape?

[Damian]

I accidentally neglected to display my pass earlier this year. I got the $5 ticket version. I sent in a note explaining the situation and noted my pass number. Never heard back. From what I have gathered, there is no follow-up if you get the $5 ticket version, although the note said that they had taken my license plate number. This may be sort of like your high school “permanent record”. Scary at the time, but otherwise meaningless. I have received conflicting info regarding how far you need to be from a trailhead to avoid being cited. Gary Paull from the Mt Baker Snoq. Main office said there was no “quarter mile rule” anymore, but weaseled around the question of how far one must park from a trailhead to be legal. I finally gave up after asking the simple question at least 3 different ways. Contrarilywise, a woman ranger at the Skykomish ranger station reluctantly told me that the quarter mile rule was still in effect, but only after I forcefully pried the answer from her. She gave me a dozen different bogus answers before finally addressing my simple question. Forget about the actual issues for a minute. It stinks that the FS policy is confusing and inconsistent, and that FS employees routinely avoid legitimate questions about the process.

[Ice Girl]

i find those Rangers at Skykomish Station to be unhelpfull, down right rude and i really don't think they know anything about the trails or anything for that matter... makes me see , probably better if i don't go in there. Ice Girl

[Backpacker Joe]

Some of the back country rangers are experienced and knowledgeable. Generally speaking the others dont know jack! Going into a ranger station for me is like walking onto a new car lot, I ALWAYS end up knowing MORE about what I am there for than they do! TB

[McPilchuck]

I have ran into good Rangers and bad ones, (the bad generally have no experience whatsoever or are on some ego cop trip, though they all seem pretty nice to me. However, writng parking tickets shouldn't be a part of their job IMO. Though most everyone knows my opinion on the Forest/Trail/Park Pass issue, I will maintain I already "paid my dues" to the Federal Government having been "drafted" (LUCKY NUMBER 7) into the US Army during the Vietnam era. Having said that, I don't ever intend to buy a Pass and never will to park or walk upon Nat'l Forest "public" land outside of Nat'l Parks (that's another subject), nor do I intend on ever paying for a parking ticket written therein. Not that I don't see a need for trailhead improvements at specific locations or a need for revenue for that, but it won't come from being "forced" from my pockets...donations and volunteerism yes, but not forced. If the FS needs more money for roads, improvements, ect., ask Congress for an increase in budget thru traditional taxation. "nuff said" a small read relating: http://www.alpinequest.com/onmtsawyer.htm

[Dslayer]

Ice girl mentioned back country rangers-do any of you actually see any-I've never seen one in WA, although I have run one into one trail maintenance crew. In MT, this year, both drainages I hiked into had rangers, temps who were college kids, that worked 10 days on, four days off. Really cool kids, gung ho about their jobs, picking up garbage and enforcing the regs--not writing tickets but reminded people of the camping regs and so forth.

[Bushwacker]

Funny you should mention it, Dslayer. Ran into one a couple weeks back or I should say he almost ran into me. Up in Beckler River. Lit me up and went on to tell me I was lucky I wasn't getting a $250 fine. His story was I was going too fast for a gravel road and if he saw me fishtail, I would have gotten the ticket. He went on and on and on..... It was definitely an ego trip...big time. I finally got the old"Don't ever let me catch you again" routine. That's the only time I've seen one. As far as the ego thing, I stand on the fact I have witnesses. BW

[DuckDuckGoose]

First, I was not a "Tree Cop" (Forestry Service or Park Service Ranger; Law Enforcement or otherwise), but I had a lot of contact with them in Wyoming when I was a State Police Officer and Backpacker, In FLETC (Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Georgia) when I went through training and in Virginia, Maryland & the NE as a Federal Police Officer & Hiker/ Backpacker. Now, with this in mind I will try to explain some of the Federal Police Psychology to you as objectively as possible. In regard to having a permit, but not showing it. This is a little like having a Driving License but not having it when driving and asked for by a Police Officer. You get charged with "Driving without a License" by 80% + of the Police out there. Occasionally, one will give you a break; but the default setting is you get charged and you pay the fine. ( Yes, I know you can challenge it in court, most of the judges will blow you off and say pay the fine or some, if they're feeling happy, may even reduce the fine, but don't count on it!) Unfortunately some of the other cases described here can only be described as personality foibles on the part of the individual Ranger or poor instructions given from the Forestry Service/ Park Service management. The directives in the Federal Government are usually written in such bizarre "Beltway Legaleese" that you or your supervisors have to make some form of interpretation that can vary wildly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. And if one District Head's priorities lie in law enforcement of people, while another lies in enforcement of resources, well you can see where this is heading. And it is not pretty. As for the "Bubba" Rangers that you get to experience at the Station House. I guess you have to wonder about "Forest" Rangers that work in Town. Perhaps the Forest is where you DON'T want them to be. Every job has a dumping ground for there individuals who "underwhelm" you with their job performance, but do just enough to not get fired. Also, the Forestry Service and Park Service have a rather unusual mthod of bringing their Rangers online. Many have to go through several posting as a "Seasonal" Ranger. This is when a Ranger Wanna-be has to work over 1-5 years as a temporary Ranger at several locations, with minimal benefits and and usually not so great housing and generally really low pay. This can unfortuantely manifest itself as bad attitudes or dispirited and arbitrarily motivated individuals at the Ranger Stations. Like anywhere else there are great Rangers and not so great ones. And who you run into is just the luck of the draw. Needless to say, power (or perceived power) tends inflate the egos of some if not many of these folks as well. While I certainly don't defend everything that both the Ranger's and Forest and Park Services do. But I can sympasize with them in certain aspects of the job. It gets frustrating for any Law Enforcement Officer who see's people purposely and obviously doing wrong (Fires in no fire areas, littering and dumping, and then bald-faced lying about it.) Unfortunately, it is fact that the lowest level of conduct is what Law Enforcement Officers come in expecting, at first. Anything above that comes as a welcome relief and allows the Officer to give a greater degree of latitude in doling out (or not) any fines, citations etc.... Equally frustrating is the fact that "Public Servants" often dissapoint the Public and the funds that are supposed to go to the improvement to Public and wilderness areas are usually the first to get cut by the Government and the last to get doled out. Even then they are squandered by gross mismanagement and I understand the indignation felt by any thinking tax-payer . Pair this with the fact that nobody like getting a ticket (which hurts the receivers ego!!) Hope this helps in explaining some of the randomness out there. DDG

[Dslayer]

BW-I'm talking rangers actually walking around on trails in the Wilderness-I have experienced the type of individual you're talking about in spades-but that's another story. I would like to see the NFS have more of a presence in the backcountry, maybe some of the things that occur too frequently, i.e. bad toilet practices, bad fires, etc would happen less often. In fact, if the NFS wanted $30 to do that--and actually did it--I'd pay w/o complaint.

[polarbear]

Well, the ranger I spoke to regarding my Spider Meadows incident said that a pass was require there once you left the pavement on the road to that trailhead. That's many miles of gravel, so it would seem to cover anything there from hiking to eating a picnic lunch off the tailgate while you listen to the sound of the creek beside the road. If you're parked on that stretch, you better put on your serious nonrecreating countenance

[polarbear]

I've ran into rangers several times on the trail. -Necklace valley (shovel in hand) -Deep Lake -Lake Annette (two of them at the lake this year)

[kleet]

I've run into Wilderness Rangers at least three times that I can recall: 1) In the Enchantments: "Hands against the tent! Feet back and spread 'em! Where's your permit?!" 2) Between Pete and Spectacle Lakes. 3) At Rachel Lake: "Knock, knock! Just a reminder, no fires allowed!" All but the one at Rachel were good experiences... did I really need someone knocking on my tent telling me not to have a fire? I knew the Ranger I met near Spectacle Lake because I used to work with him in the USFS. I saw him again a few weeks back and he told me that 10 or 15 years ago Cle Elum RD had 2 seasonal and one permanent Wilderness Ranger. Last summer they had two -- a retired couple who were volunteers. That's gotta be where all that TrailPark money goes, to not paying Wilderness Rangers.

[Malachai Constant]

Perhaps the trail park money could be used to install these

at some isolated mountain lakes .

[ajgoodkids]

Hey. Where's Sparky these days? He was certainly out there and friendly to run into.