[Erik the Nav]

[Erik the Nav]

[Malachai Constant]

Hey I'm not lookin for a fight. I am an attorney and we never give an unqualified endorsement, especially on an emotional topic. I suffices to say the NRA has never challenged laws on 2nd amendement grounds because they are smart enough to know they will lose. My opinion is that historical perspective is on their side but that is not really relevant is iit?

[Hiker Boy]

I'm going to spend my $0.02 which is probably worthless to you because it's Canadian. I had two hunting rifles but I sold them to a psycho friend of mine. Whew, I feel safer! Never felt the need to carry a gun for safety reasons even down in your neck of the woods. I had the hell scared out of me when my family were eating lunch at rest area in Oregon when a rather dishevilled person pulled out his handgun and started cleaning it at the next picnic table. I had visions of a headline on the news "Canadian Family Massacred in Oregon Rest Stop"...we were out of there! Never ever saw anyone do that up here! Truth be told, I find hand guns to be alien, scary, and from a man's point of view, a little sexy I suppose. Recently I have gotten into lighweight backpacking and packing heat would be a big step back in that regards (even if it was allowed up here!). I prefer to defend myself with my sharp tongue and rapier wit...I know, I know people who know me are going to say I'm in trouble!

[Erik the Nav]

[Erik the Nav]

Hey, here's another tangent on this thread, regarding labelling someone a communist. Shall we define communist as someone favoring collective or government ownership of the means of production? It's a fairly common short definition, if probably inadequate. So, a little mental experiment for you: find a Republican Party member (may take time if you live in Seattle), and ask, "do you favor privatizing all the roads?" In 99+% of the cases, you're going to hear "no." Well, here's a means of producing transportation. Hell, nearly as high a percentage are going to favor public ownership of forest land for timber production. They're all dirty rotten commies. Yes?

[Realistic American]

[MCaver]

From the way I see it used by reactionary fanatical right-wing conservatives these days, a "communist" is anyone that is less reactionary, fanatical, right-wing and/or conservative than they are (aka 95% of the population), or specifically, someone that disagrees with them about something. It's become as useless a label as "liberal", and is usually used in tandem with it. These days the label also gets thrown around when someone has the gall to actually criticize the government after 9/11.

[Malachai Constant]

It depends on what the definition of "is" is-WJC The meaning of the word communism has changed depending on whom is using the term and in what time period it is used. Originally it was a Christian doctrine of communal living used by monks and isolated sects. It became a political movement about the time of the first French revolution (a topic that our schools are woefully inadequate in teaching). Karl Mark used the term to cover a philosophy that he was promoting naming it after an uprising and short-lived government at the commune of Paris. French communes are similar to our counties. Marxism believed in ownership of the means of production by the “workers”. This was at a time when the old system of based upon land ownership was being displaced by capitalism where wealth was based upon capital (means of production). There probably has never been a government based upon Marxist principles as it assumes that workers will freely contribute their labor for the common good. This works with idealistic revolutionaries but not the great mass of humanity. Marx realized that this was against human nature and promoted a dictatorship of the proletariat where humanity would be changed. There were communist parties in most of Europe at this time that primarily depended upon democratic means to achieve their goals. This later became entrenched in the labor movement and socialist parties such as the English labour party and the social democrats in Germany and France. Eventually they organized the Second International. Russia followed a different tact where the Tsar retained a feudal government. Russia had no democratic tradition and became the home of the most radical revolutionaries foremost of which was Lenin. Lenin argued against liberal reforms because in his opinion it would only prolong the existence of a corrupt system. When the Russian government collapsed in WWI he gained power and modern communism was born. This was a government concerned with gaining power spreading revolution. This ideas gained currency at the third international. At first Lenin encouraged divergent thought and discussion but resorted to force when counterrevolutionaries threatened his government. The transition became complete when Stalin converted the state into a totalitarian system. Stalin had much success in Russia and the system became appealing during the depression when the western countries had outrageous unemployment. In the US FDR instituted much of the liberal reforms and prevented the fall of capitalism until increased government spending in WWII finally saved the economy. In Germany the National Socialists instituted a system similar in many ways to Stalin’s at the behest of wealthy industrialists but with added aspects of racism and nationalism. The Nazi system allowed private ownership of the means of production. In China Mao pursued a agrarian version of Stalin’s system based in the country side after losing street battles in Shanghai. Mao’s system followed many of the patterns of Stalin’s but largely still exists, as most industries are still owned by the government. In Russia the Communists lost power and there is no clear pattern emerging. The use of any of these terms is pretty useless as they mean so many things to different people.

[MCaver]

There's some damn smart people in this forum. Thanks for the knowledge. Excellent info.

[catwoman]

Yeah, and most scary psycho's are really smart, too!

[Backpacker Joe]

Actually, it was meant as a joke/insult! I dont expect that Miss. Allison REALLY is a Marxist Lennonist! Commie for your mommy! TB

[MCaver]

I wasn't specifically talking about you, BPJ.

[Erik the Nav]

[Backpacker Joe]

Look, Miss. Allison and I have had our tints that's for sure. That said, I would much rather be on a FAVORABLE stance with her than the reverse! This site has been a blast, and I dont want a "Hatfields and McCoys" fued going on if I can help it. There are some really great/intelligent people here. TB