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Pyrites
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PostWed Nov 23, 2022 9:31 am 
I find ‘griz lived on the prairie, not the Rockies’ about as credible as ‘elk lived on the Prairie, not the Rockies’. Maybe elk pop’s densities on the prairie were higher. Maybe they were easier to see, or hunt. I don’t find it credible that in millennia either specie ignored the adjacent habitat.

Keep Calm and Carry On? Heck No. Stay Excited and Get Outside!
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PostWed Nov 23, 2022 9:35 am 
Worthington wrote:
If there are really just "about 6" grizzlies in the north cascades on the Canadian side, it seems like there would not be enough overlapping or adjacent population to really add meaningful genetic diversity or population reintrodiuction sources into a potential pool of transplanted bears into WA. Since these "about 6" bears aren't currently regularly living on the USA side in the Pasayten or main North Cascades zones even without rival Grizz to the south, would they be expected to move south and breed (not just fight or fear rivalry)after Grizz are put on the USA side of the border? I feel like I am hearing simultaneously contradicting messages that there are grizzlies living on both sides of the border in the North Cascades, and the habitat suits - but also that there is no viable population of Grizzlies adjacent to the border that could expand into this range, so there needs to be a massive transplant. This is an aside, but I've found it frustrating that over the decades groups like Conservation NW and to some extent the NCCC and NCNP have claimed that there ARE grizzlies living in Washington (resident or frequent border crossers which require special protection, signage at trailheads, education, and should compel us to give $$$ to those pro-grizzly groups) but then also claim at times, or admit, that there are no Grizzlies, so we need to spend more $$$ bringing in grizzlies.) It seems like they take whichever position will likely result in more influence and donations for their group.
@Worthington - ^ It's been fairly well established that the "environmental" movement became an industry, thanks to your contributions You're asking some of the same questions that I have been asking for years. They don't have answers. If they did, they'd answer those questions. Since they cannot provide answers, they resort to the duck/dodge/deny/blame strategy. It's smoke and mirrors. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. But hey, let's spend millions of tax dollars on an experiment we think might work some day. Kind of like wolves. How's that working out there?

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."

Asplorin
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gb
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PostWed Nov 23, 2022 11:16 am 
Snowshovel wrote:
gb wrote:
There is a great deal of evidence of human attacks or abductions in wilderness; not so much of Bears in Washington or BC.
“A great deal”? Closer to zero, but not zero. Pinnacle Lake, Lewis County and Kari Swenson
Incomplete list! How about near Walupt Lake this year and the woman on Sauk Mountain a few years ago? Walupt Lake murders

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gb
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PostWed Nov 23, 2022 11:23 am 
Worthington wrote:
This is an aside, but I've found it frustrating that over the decades groups like Conservation NW and to some extent the NCCC and NCNP have claimed that there ARE grizzlies living in Washington (resident or frequent border crossers which require special protection, signage at trailheads, education, and should compel us to give $$$ to those pro-grizzly groups) but then also claim at times, or admit, that there are no Grizzlies, so we need to spend more $$$ bringing in grizzlies.) It seems like they take whichever position will likely result in more influence and donations for their group.
And yet just a few posts above i cited evidence of a large Grizzly about ten years ago that I documented to the worthwhile GBOP. At the same time I e-mailed and PM'ed a couple that likely saw the same bear with 2 cubs (and photographed them) within 5 miles of where I saw the evidence. The fellow from Montana was well aware of the ID of Grizzlies. So:
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ut then also claim at times, or admit, that there are no Grizzlies
is political hogwash.

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gb
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PostWed Nov 23, 2022 11:43 am 
Pyrites wrote:
I find ‘griz lived on the prairie, not the Rockies’ about as credible as ‘elk lived on the Prairie, not the Rockies’. Maybe elk pop’s densities on the prairie were higher. Maybe they were easier to see, or hunt. I don’t find it credible that in millennia either specie ignored the adjacent habitat.
Grizzly Bear Prairie populations, etc. Report of Canadian Government: https://www.canada.ca/en/environment-climate-change/services/species-risk-public-registry/recovery-strategies/grizzly-bear-prairie-population/chapter-1.html#s1_3_1 It is likely that there were some Grizzlies especially in river valleys like the Bow and Saskatchewan, but at one time the prairies had huge populations of Bison and Elk. Further Salmon would have been widespread in many river systems. With the great food sources, obtaining food and just living would have been easier on the prairies, although in winter they may have denned in the foothills. It would have been harder to make a living off rodents, etc. in the mountains. The Prairies had large areas of berries; especially Saskatoon berries and Buffalo berries (which taste awful).

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Snowshovel
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PostWed Nov 23, 2022 12:00 pm 
gb wrote:
Snowshovel wrote:
gb wrote:
There is a great deal of evidence of human attacks or abductions in wilderness; not so much of Bears in Washington or BC.
“A great deal”? Closer to zero, but not zero. Pinnacle Lake, Lewis County and Kari Swenson
Incomplete list! How about near Walupt Lake this year and the woman on Sauk Mountain a few years ago? Walupt Lake murders
By your own standards, my list was fully complete. I brought up the Lewis County shooting. I wasn’t aware that the Patti Krieger incident was foul play. Do you have a link? Ignoring the fact that every incident listed was parking lots, near country or possibly internecine, that doesn’t add up to a great number. The Patti Kreiger incident is confusing, but it should be remembered that a whole group was involved, and tweakers love to narc each other out.

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Worthington
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PostWed Nov 23, 2022 12:47 pm 
Does this:
gb wrote:
And yet just a few posts above i cited evidence of a large Grizzly about ten years ago that I documented to the worthwhile GBOP. At the same time I e-mailed and PM'ed a couple that likely saw the same bear with 2 cubs (and photographed them) within 5 miles of where I saw the evidence. The fellow from Montana was well aware of the ID of Grizzlies. So:
Quote:
ut then also claim at times, or admit, that there are no Grizzlies
is political hogwash.
Refer to this:
gb wrote:
That is what I was going to say, also. That the Coquialla and Highway 3 act as obvious barriers. Despite that, I saw evidence of a Grizzly Bear in the North Cascades twice about 10 years ago. Wildlife biologists thought that this bear's activity was perhaps a seasonal move from the Manning Park group of bears (personal communication).
If so, what do you mean exactly by "I saw evidence"? What is the GBOP and what exactly was the documentation?

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PostWed Nov 23, 2022 12:51 pm 
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vibramhead
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PostWed Nov 23, 2022 1:24 pm 
"Relegating grizzlies to Alaska is about like relegating happiness to heaven; one may never get there." --Aldo Leopold, A Sand County Almanac

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PostWed Nov 23, 2022 1:49 pm 
Worthington wrote:
"...what exactly was the documentation?"
^ and therin lies a good part of the conundrum here: are there grizzly bears residing and/or foraging within the boundaries of NCNP or not? gb is not the only nwhikers.net member who has claimed to have found hard evidence of grizzly bears in NCNP. And nwhikers.net is only a microcosm of the number of individuals who have ventured into the wilds of NCNP - I think we can accept that as a given. So.... if it is true that there are grizzly bears there, why do we need to go through all the monkey-motion of survey-and-manage-and-writing-an-EIS? Why is it that WDFW, USFWS, and other wildlife agencies seem to have a propensity for not acknowledging documented sightings of wolverines wolves grizzly bears? (sorry for the confusion there... ) wink.gif

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostWed Nov 23, 2022 2:07 pm 
altasnob wrote:
There were grizzlies in Mexico, Minnesota, Texas, and Los Angeles.
Indeed, that bear on the state flag of California is a grizzly!

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RumiDude
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PostWed Nov 23, 2022 3:23 pm 
DadFly wrote:
The article compares them to a human three year old in terms of cognizant processing. Also puts them at the level of a primate. Koko learned sign language. Not at a "sophisticated" level by human standards but communicated with clarity. Chuck Jonkel related them to teenagers on a behavioral level (opportunists with a lack of ethical understanding). Hope that relieves that twitch a bit.
*twitch* Two big caveats concerning anthropomorphic tendencies: #1 equating animal behaviors to the same as human behavior #2 elevating human behavior beyond instinctual behavior. Each species is equipped with instinctual intelligence that allows individuals to learn and thus promotes its survival. That includes the human species. In fact, much of our learning capacity is totally instinctual, with language acquisition as a prime example. Most people acquire all they need to know to communicate by the time they reach four years old, including a rich vocabulary and the rules of grammar and syntax without one formal school lesson. Humans are hardwired for language. As a sidenote on Koko, many language scientists dispute much of the popular claims about Koko and her language skills. Francine Peterson was too invested in the popular narrative about Koko to give an accurate and unbiased assessment of Koko's language skills. The same applies to Bart's handler Doug Sues. See Clever Hans and Wilhelm von Osten. Ants have a tremendous ability to find any available food in a house, at least in my house. Monarch butterflies have an ability to navigate thousands of miles. Bees have an ability to fly far and wide in search of food, navigate back to the hive, and communicate the location of the food to the other bees. Sea turtles have the ability to navigate back to the exact beach they hatched on to lay their own eggs. In these and other instances we usually don't attribute this to intelligence and declare how smart ants (et al) are. Instead we marvel at their instinctual behavior. Getting back to bears and in particular brown/grizzly bears. One of the biggest killers of bears near civilization are automobiles and trains. Bears have a natural sense of avoiding noisy situations with which they are unfamiliar. Thus they naturally avoid human settlements and associated things like roads/highways, railroads, mining activity, logging opperations, etc. That's why all those things are barriers to natural bear migration, as in from Canada to the United States. But when they do get accustomed to the noise and hang around roads and such, they are subject to get killed and/or injured by autos and trains. In other words they haven't learned how to safely avoid autos and trains. When we humans build wildlife overpasses and such, bears and all the other animals learn how to use them. And so because of our far superior intelligence, it is up to us humans to figure out how to have truly wild areas that includes apex predators such as bears, wolves, and cougars. Sure it will cost us money, effort, and modifying our own behaviors, but I think it is worth it. To paraphrase E.O. Wilson, we need wild places, true wilderness with even grizzly, because we evolved there. It is our ancestral home. I enjoy discussing this topic, as is probably evident. The relationship of humans to the rest of the world is intensely interesting. Some, including yourself, might describe me as pedantic about it. We agree about most this stuff, it's just my twitches that get in the way. As Aldo Leopold wrote: "We abuse land because we see it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong, we may begin to use it with love and respect." Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Snowshovel
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PostWed Nov 23, 2022 3:30 pm 
Ski wrote:
Why is it that WDFW, USFWS, and other wildlife agencies seem to have a propensity for not acknowledging documented sightings of grizzly bears?
Because there are also “documented” Sasquatch sightings, but that doesn’t mean there are Sasquatch. Try as they might, camera traps and hair snares have provided nothing. Nobody has gotten a claw print cast or photographed. No grizzly poop either.

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Zloi
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PostWed Nov 23, 2022 3:51 pm 
I am curious how many people who advocate for the re-introduction of grizzlies in NCNP would be likely to hike there if they knew it now had a population comparable to certain areas of BC and Alaska? Here's another way of looking at the situation: suppose there were a beautiful section of beach that was shark infested at one time but now, because of human activity AND/OR other factors the sharks have disappeared and swimming there is safe. How many people would want to re-introduce sharks just because it is 'their' natural habitat (or for whatever reason)?

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PostWed Nov 23, 2022 8:09 pm 
^ Toasters are responsible for more deaths than shark attacks. That's why I don't own a toaster. https://www.sharksider.com/know-dangerous-shark/

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."

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