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BigBrunyon
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BigBrunyon
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PostWed Dec 07, 2022 11:07 pm 
no, my main point was just Dave ordered that reuben at the 76!

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gb
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gb
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PostThu Dec 08, 2022 8:52 am 
Secret Agent Man wrote:
Regardless, those are still summer positions. Even if Steve House and Graham Zimmerman applied, it wouldn't change winter access. Is MRNP admin trying to do anything about the closure in the short term? Are they contracting with any of the many EMT services in the Puget Sound area for the EMT presence that is apparently so important? Are they planning on how to avoid this problem in winter 2023/24? Are they doing any public communication or townhalls on the issue, or are they just having their boosters argue with people on FB and social media comments?
This last bit sounds like a bit of a conspiracy theory thing. "just having their boosters argue with people....." The job market is tight, the jobs don't pay that well competitively, and the pay has to be sufficient to cover current gas costs and lodging. Private businesses can be nimble in matching pay to current conditions. Government jobs don't work that way. Budgets and pay scales are set, and to raise pay would probably require Congressional action of some sort, either as a temporary bonus, or some short term incentivized wages. That is not a quick thing because of the timing for Congressional budgets. Writing Senators and Congressman is likely to be the quickest fix. I might guess the Administration might possibly have the discretion to make some sort of temporary out of budget fix?

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vogtski
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PostFri Dec 09, 2022 5:46 am 
Their own employees have rated NPS management among the worst of all federal agencies for over a decade; https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2022/07/national-park-service-continues-languish-best-places-work-survey

Diagonally parked in a parallel universe
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cascadeclimber
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PostFri Dec 09, 2022 9:03 am 
Secret Agent Man wrote:
Are they planning on how to avoid this problem in winter 2023/24? Are they doing any public communication or townhalls on the issue, or are they just having their boosters argue with people on FB and social media comments?
I have an email from former superintendent Randy King from the last time this happened. He promised there would be public meetings should it come up again. He also stated that commercial entities would not be allowed to access Paradise by the road when it is closed to the public. He also told me he's send me the incident report from the incident when a ranger was entangled in helo lift lines and picked up off the ground during a rescue. What I got was a blank FOIA request form. I guess the same is going on with the other commitments.

If not now, when?
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Ski
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PostFri Dec 09, 2022 11:07 am 
^ Unfortunately lack of adequate Congressional funding appropriations is the reason that the National Park Service doesn't do a lot of things. It is a real problem - not one that is imagined.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."

altasnob
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fourteen410
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PostFri Dec 09, 2022 3:16 pm 
^ this, 100%

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zimmertr
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PostFri Dec 09, 2022 5:16 pm 
Likely closed tomorrow: https://twitter.com/MountRainierNPS/status/1601368653047377921
Quote:
MountRainierNPS @MountRainierNPS The gate to Paradise at Longmire is not expected to open tomorrow, 12/10/2022, due to current forecasts. The road will be open to Longmire. - tks
Pretty big bummer tbh. I'm disappointed in my country. I followed this Twitter account because I really love the park. It's very special to me. Like many of you, I assume. But the past month 90% of things I've seen on my feed from them have been "We won't be open tomorrow". I hope something changes.

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Randito
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PostFri Dec 09, 2022 5:38 pm 
zimmertr wrote:
Likely closed tomorrow: https://twitter.com/MountRainierNPS/status/1601368653047377921
Quote:
MountRainierNPS @MountRainierNPS The gate to Paradise at Longmire is not expected to open tomorrow, 12/10/2022, due to current forecasts. The road will be open to Longmire. - tks
Pretty big bummer tbh. I'm disappointed in my country. I followed this Twitter account because I really love the park. It's very special to me. Like many of you, I assume. But the past month 90% of things I've seen on my feed from them have been "We won't be open tomorrow". I hope something changes.
NOAA has issued a winter storm warning for tonight and tomorrow. Regardless of funding and staffing issues keeping the gate closed at Longmire during a winter storm warning I think is the appropriate policy from a safety perspective.

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zimmertr
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PostFri Dec 09, 2022 6:03 pm 
That's probably a good take. But I guess "winter storm warning" rings differently to me as someone that grew up with heavy winters. Not to say it can't be dangerous. More that I'm used to that disclaimer meaning snow is in the forecast at all. I dunno, just send an extra plow truck every hour? Can't afford it? See my original comment....

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Randito
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PostFri Dec 09, 2022 8:51 pm 
The section of road above the Nisqually Bridge has numerous avalanche paths. A natural avalanche coming down and striking a vehicle would be problematic. It has happened in the past. It has also happen on other state highways before the WSDOT started closing roads for avalanche control work, using explosives to release snow build up and then clear the road of the resulting debris.

gb
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HikingBex
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PostFri Dec 09, 2022 10:04 pm 
Curious to hear what the Mountaineers (and other orgs - maybe WA National Park Fund? WTA?) hear from park leadership - this really is a huge blow to winter access

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Bruce Albert
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PostSat Dec 10, 2022 11:19 pm 
Randito wrote:
The section of road above the Nisqually Bridge has numerous avalanche paths. A natural avalanche coming down and striking a vehicle would be problematic. It has happened in the past. It has also happen on other state highways before the WSDOT started closing roads for avalanche control work, using explosives to release snow build up and then clear the road of the resulting debris.
To whatever extent this is true it may be also said that it is not news at all. Paradise used to hold the record for max annual snowfall; I do not remember the hand wringing over keeping the road open then, and I've driven to Paradise without incident or drama on some pretty stormy days. WSDOT plays the same game. It's the 21st century public agency management mantra: When the going gets tough, the tough close the road. In fairness, a chunk of stuff like this is driven by risk managers, who in turn are driven by the increasing amount of jury awards, which in turn are driven by a public who views any misfortune as a potential cash cow and the trial lawyers who are more than happy to share in the largesse. I can also, in fairness to the NPS, see that the winter recreating public is less and less prepared to drive, or for that matter survive, in winter conditions...if Saturday traffic on US2 is any example. I imagine that given a high proportion of...gomers..the Paradise Road can easily be an epic sXXX show on any given saturday. But whatever, problems have solutions. They need a supe and an attitude down there do keep the road open; the rest is just details.

vogtski
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Randito
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PostSun Dec 11, 2022 7:06 am 
Bruce Albert wrote:
But whatever, problems have solutions.
Yes and one effective solution is to keep the road closed during a winter storm warning. Regardless of whether anyone sues, having a vehicle engulfed by an avalanche or having a group of vehicles stuck at Paradise by an avalanche blocking the road above the Nisqually bridge is not an outcome that anybody wants. The winter budget adjusted for inflation is much much smaller than it was in the '70s when "the senator from Boeing" , "Scoop Jackson" was so adept at directing federal dollars to Washington state and Mt Rainier Park specifically that the NPS named the Mt Rainier visitor center after him. Perhaps we need a senator that is as keen on Mt Rainier as Henry M Jackson was.

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gb
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gb
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PostSun Dec 11, 2022 10:57 am 
Bruce Albert wrote:
]To whatever extent this is true it may be also said that it is not news at all. Paradise used to hold the record for max annual snowfall; I do not remember the hand wringing over keeping the road open then, and I've driven to Paradise without incident or drama on some pretty stormy days. WSDOT plays the same game. It's the 21st century public agency management mantra: When the going gets tough, the tough close the road. In fairness, a chunk of stuff like this is driven by risk managers
Bruce Albert wrote:
Randito wrote:
The section of road above the Nisqually Bridge has numerous avalanche paths. A natural avalanche coming down and striking a vehicle would be problematic. It has happened in the past. It has also happen on other state highways before the WSDOT started closing roads for avalanche control work, using explosives to release snow build up and then clear the road of the resulting debris.
To whatever extent this is true it may be also said that it is not news at all. Paradise used to hold the record for max annual snowfall; I do not remember the hand wringing over keeping the road open then, and I've driven to Paradise without incident or drama on some pretty stormy days. WSDOT plays the same game. It's the 21st century public agency management mantra: When the going gets tough, the tough close the road. In fairness, a chunk of stuff like this is driven by risk managers
This is a bit of a strawman. Acceptance of risk in a situation where any government or private actions are required or taken is not looked at the same way today as it was 20-30-40 or more years ago. In the 1980's a plow driver was killed in an avalanche on Red Mountain Pass. And numerous cars have been hit by avalanches in this historic period. Inidviduals, and the society as a whole do not view these situations as they once did in a very different society. Randito is bang on, the avalanche paths above the Nisqually bridge are serious and would be very likely to slide during heavy storms or especially with warming temperatures during or soon after a storm. Hec, with weak layers like SH or facets, just driving a plow on the road beneath these very steep slopes could release energy to trigger a slab above. For instance, just now at NWAC is a report in the Blewett Pass area of collapsing failure propagating at least 50 yards. I've seen two hundred to 400 yards from shaking trees.

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Schroder
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PostSun Dec 11, 2022 2:14 pm 
My initial reaction was to be really pissed off about this - Paradise hasn't been closed before in the winter in my lifetime that I can recall. On the other hand, I live on Whidbey Island and our ferry system doesn't have several ferries running because they don't have enough crew to staff the boats. The Anacortes to Sydney run may never be restored. The pandemic has changed a lot of things in our lives that may never be the same again. Hopefully in future years they'll have enough staff again at Mt. Rainier so we can go play on weekdays at Paradise again.

SpookyKite89, joker
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