Previous :: Next Topic |
Author |
Message |
Sky Hiker Member
Joined: 03 Feb 2007 Posts: 1469 | TRs | Pics Location: outside |
Randito wrote: | Sky Hiker wrote: | Which IMO you didn't enjoy you just annoyed others |
You seem very committed to the idea way you experience and enjoy the outdoors is the only right way.
what gave you the impression I was committed to your so called "my way"?
Sky Hiker wrote: | Sooner or later they are going to cause an accident |
If your balance is so poor that someone passing you could make you fall and your body is so frail that a simple fall would result in serious injury, perhaps you need to stick to places close to emergency services. |
You? At what point did I say it was me? I happen to see a lot of older folks out there that just want to enjoy the he outdoors. I understand you always have that antagonistic way about you and just to try to get someone riled up but I am not buying into it.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Schroder Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 6696 | TRs | Pics Location: on the beach |
|
Schroder
Member
|
Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:56 pm
|
|
|
NightOwl wrote: | Is Hiking Ruining the Wilderness Experience? |
What is "the Wilderness Experience"? Not seeing other people?
|
Back to top |
|
|
NightOwl Member
Joined: 01 Sep 2022 Posts: 115 | TRs | Pics
|
|
NightOwl
Member
|
Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:28 pm
|
|
|
Schroder wrote: | What is "the Wilderness Experience"? Not seeing other people? |
That, or at least not seeing people who look like they wandered in from a gym, running down the trail in short shorts with headphones on in a narcissistic bubble, etc. It means experiencing something more wild, sacred and selective. This is probably alien to the mentality of most people in our society, who just brush it off as "my problem". Maybe so, but I doubt I'm alone in this feeling. Hiking as an industry and hobby for the masses sucks; the more people and money are involved, the cheaper the experience gets. This may be my problem, but it's also your problem.
Sky Hiker
Sky Hiker
|
Back to top |
|
|
Randito Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008 Posts: 9495 | TRs | Pics Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
|
Randito
Snarky Member
|
Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:27 pm
|
|
|
NightOwl wrote: | Schroder wrote: | What is "the Wilderness Experience"? Not seeing other people? |
That, or at least not seeing people who look like they wandered in from a gym, running down the trail in short shorts with headphones on in a narcissistic bubble, etc. It means experiencing something more wild, sacred and selective. This is probably alien to the mentality of most people in our society, who just brush it off as "my problem". Maybe so, but I doubt I'm alone in this feeling. Hiking as an industry and hobby for the masses sucks; the more people and money are involved, the cheaper the experience gets. This may be my problem, but it's also your problem. |
Funny the text of the wilderness act doesn't say anything about shorts length -- There is language about "Unconfined recreation" which seem to rule out requiring tight jock straps for entering wilderness areas.
I think a good summary of your OP would be "Get off my lawn, you whippersnappers"
SpookyKite89, snowmonkey
SpookyKite89, snowmonkey
|
Back to top |
|
|
NightOwl Member
Joined: 01 Sep 2022 Posts: 115 | TRs | Pics
|
|
NightOwl
Member
|
Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:31 pm
|
|
|
Randito wrote: | I think a good summary of your OP would be "Get off my lawn, you whippersnappers" |
Get off my trail, yes. But I'm probably younger than many of the people criticizing me. Maybe we should blame Californians and the Californication of Washington, which used to be a much wilder and freer place.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Schroder Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2007 Posts: 6696 | TRs | Pics Location: on the beach |
|
Schroder
Member
|
Fri Jan 27, 2023 4:33 pm
|
|
|
NightOwl wrote: | That, or at least not seeing people who look like they wandered in from a gym, running down the trail in short shorts with headphones on in a narcissistic bubble, etc. It means experiencing something more wild, sacred and selective. This is probably alien to the mentality of most people in our society, who just brush it off as "my problem". Maybe so, but I doubt I'm alone in this feeling. Hiking as an industry and hobby for the masses sucks; the more people and money are involved, the cheaper the experience gets. This may be my problem, but it's also your problem. |
I'd say it is your problem if it's based on how people are dressed. If they were all in animal fur would that make it better?
There's no denying there are more people on the trails but there are 5 billion more people on the planet than when I started hiking. If it's total solitude you're looking for, you're not going to find it on a trail in Washington.
Cyclopath, SpookyKite89, JimK, dave allyn
Cyclopath, SpookyKite89, JimK, dave allyn
|
Back to top |
|
|
fourteen410 Member
Joined: 23 May 2008 Posts: 2622 | TRs | Pics
|
Who cares? Hike your own hike. There are far more important issues to worry about.
EternalBlue, Cyclopath, SpookyKite89, Leafguy, RichardJ, zimmertr
EternalBlue, Cyclopath, SpookyKite89, Leafguy, RichardJ, zimmertr
|
Back to top |
|
|
Randito Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008 Posts: 9495 | TRs | Pics Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
|
Randito
Snarky Member
|
Fri Jan 27, 2023 7:04 pm
|
|
|
NightOwl wrote: | Randito wrote: | I think a good summary of your OP would be "Get off my lawn, you whippersnappers" |
Get off my trail, yes. But I'm probably younger than many of the people criticizing me. Maybe we should blame Californians and the Californication of Washington, which used to be a much wilder and freer place. |
You are making a lot of unfounded assumptions.
I was born in Washington before the 1st 707 commercial flight and backpacked in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness long before it was designated as a Wilderness.
In my experience many of the places I hiked and camped at as a kid are in better shape now than they were in the '60s , when cooking using wood cut with axes and saws and "bash burn and bury" was the standard method of garbage disposal.
The first time hiked to the summit of Tiger mountain we were intruded on by people riding Honda Trail 90s -- I'll take trail runners in short shorts taking Instagram selfies a thousand times over dirt bikers.
ALW Hiker, zimmertr
ALW Hiker, zimmertr
|
Back to top |
|
|
Malachai Constant Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 16088 | TRs | Pics Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Truth, the first time I tried to hike Tiger with a new girlfriend Tiger Summit looked like someone had whooped a wasp nest with a stick, except instead of wasps it was trail bikes buzzing around. So we went to Si instead, broke up soon afterward.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
|
Back to top |
|
|
snowmonkey Member
Joined: 23 May 2014 Posts: 87 | TRs | Pics
|
If you can find an old copy of Ehrlichs The Population Bomb, read it. I was mesmerized and terrified in the early 70’s as I made my way through this under the covers and by flashlight. Just too many darn people.
Ocian in view! O! The joy!
William Clark
Ocian in view! O! The joy!
William Clark
|
Back to top |
|
|
RumiDude Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009 Posts: 3579 | TRs | Pics Location: Port Angeles |
|
RumiDude
Marmota olympus
|
Fri Jan 27, 2023 9:16 pm
|
|
|
Well a couple people have mentioned the amount of people encountered as being a negative to their wilderness experience. Others disagreed.One did write that closing off areas to protect delicate areas was OK but not to enforce solitude.bullfrog wrote: | The title should really be "Are Too Many People Ruining the Wilderness Experience." And depending on the trail, the answer is yes. But what is the alternative? In 1993, the Forest Service floated the idea of requiring permits for day hikes at 19 trailheads in the Alpine Lakes Wilderness to enforce standards of "solitude." The plan also included trailhead "setbacks," turning a short day-hike to a lake, such as Dorothy or Eight Mile, into an overnight trip. Fortunately, the plan was never enacted. I'm not against permits when fragile areas--such as the Enchantments--are threatened. But closing off most of a wilderness to enforce "solitude" standards is going too far. Yes, trails along I-90 such as Mason Lake and Snow Lake are overcrowded, but at least occasional hikers are exposed to the beauty of the Cascades, and more likely to defend wilderness areas from developers. These are public lands; let the public enjoy them. The Instagram crowd can have Mailbox while we drive a little farther to get away from the madding crowd. |
Here is what the Wilderness Act of 1964 says about what defines wilderness:
Quote: | DEFINITION OF WILDERNESS
(c) A wilderness, in contrast with those areas where man and his works dominate the landscape, is hereby
recognized as an area where the earth and its community of life are untrammeled by man, where man himself is a
visitor who does not remain. An area of wilderness is further defined to mean in this Act an area of undeveloped
Federal land retaining its primeval character and influence, without permanent improvements or human
habitation, which is protected and managed so as to preserve its natural conditions and which (1) generally
appears to have been affected primarily by the forces of nature, with the imprint of man's work substantially
unnoticeable; (2) has outstanding opportunities for solitude or a primitive and unconfined type of recreation; (3)
has at least five thousand acres of land or is of sufficient size as to make practicable its preservation and use in an
unimpaired condition; and (4) may also contain ecological, geological, or other features of scientific, educational,
scenic, or historical value. |
So we see that solitude is part of the defining characteristics of Wilderness in the Wilderness Act. How that is worked out by every agency is up for debate, but it is in the Act itself.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
|
Back to top |
|
|
Pyrites Member
Joined: 16 Sep 2014 Posts: 1879 | TRs | Pics Location: South Sound |
|
Pyrites
Member
|
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:09 pm
|
|
|
snowmonkey wrote: | If you can find an old copy of Ehrlichs The Population Bomb, read it. I was mesmerized and terrified in the early 70’s as I made my way through this under the covers and by flashlight. Just too many darn people. |
I’d recommend Empty Planet: The Shock of Global Population Decline , Bricker & Ibbitson, 2019. We just crossed 8b last fall. If you listen to Bricker online he argues that births per woman have continued to drop since publication, and they now believe peak population is likely in the ‘40’s, at something less than 9b. Their biggest observation is that the world is urbanizing quickly, and urbanization leads to fewer births. Not only that but women have children at an older age. This appears to be cross cultural. Even in areas with rapidly growing populations, think equatorial west Africa, urbanization is apace, and birth rates are dropping.
Argues that population in the Americas is near peak now.
Recent peak, and 0.88m drop in China in 2022 is not a fluke. 1.16 child per woman will lead to huge drops. Combined with odd male/female imbalance now present in young adults and China’s population is going to rapidly drop. China’s median age is 40, just one yr older than the U.S.
Japan dropping by 1m/yr of course, and S Korea is dropping quickly.
India already is a less than replacement rate of 2.1 per woman, but their population is younger. Births will drop, but population will keep growing for awhile. India, like China also has a male female imbalance due to sex selective abortions now expressing itself in young adult population, child bearing years.
Canadian government is explicitly seeking immigrants, but thinks recent patterns of many from India and China are in the rear view mirror. Canada is talking 50m by end of century. Maybe. That would put them higher than where Germany, Italy, or Spain will be.
Want a hoot? Go listen online to those who find this a problem that must be reversed. A bunch of men who think they’re going to tell women to have more kids. Right. As if.
Keep Calm and Carry On?
Heck No.
Stay Excited and Get Outside!
Keep Calm and Carry On?
Heck No.
Stay Excited and Get Outside!
|
Back to top |
|
|
Randito Snarky Member
Joined: 27 Jul 2008 Posts: 9495 | TRs | Pics Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
|
Randito
Snarky Member
|
Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:52 pm
|
|
|
I find the Strava Heat Map feature very useful for finding places to avoid if I desire a less crowded experience.
uww, ALW Hiker, peter707
uww, ALW Hiker, peter707
|
Back to top |
|
|
peter707 Member
Joined: 16 Jun 2022 Posts: 133 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle, WA |
|
peter707
Member
|
Sat Jan 28, 2023 12:17 am
|
|
|
One major change is new technology, for at least four different reasons. All of which apply to myself & my decision making.
1) The population of WA state has increased significantly, due to migration rather than 'population bomb', to work at the ~$3T market cap of technology companies headquartered here (and because WA is great). And I suspect that technology companies tend to have less local impact on local wilderness than say, ~$2T market cap of resource extraction. But yes, hundreds (thousands?) per day on popular i-90 trails, Rainier, and Colchuck lake is a given, especially on summer weekends. If these thousands of people did not have trails, they might trample everywhere instead of walking in an orderly line on the trail up rattlesnake ledge. (and I assume SAR would be harder?)
2) Technology has improved communication between people - yes, there is some hedonistic boasting - but more importantly, I know that at least 4 people have ran up Mt. Tenerife between 01/20/2023 and 01/27/2023, stomping in steps, guaranteeing that I can leave the parking lot at 12:30pm and get back by 4pm. From segments, I know that Kamikaze 'trail' from Tenerife falls to summit goes in current snow conditions. I know that the Si-Teneriffe connector has steps bashed in. The lack of recent tracks is just as critical information as the presence of recent tracks. For example, there's no runners on panhandle gap in May for a reason.
3) The learning curve for dealing with wilderness has gotten _a lot easier_. Most of the population carries around a reliable GPS, with offline mapping data (or at least "trac-back" ability), that weighs less than 1lb. Consider that there's ~73 million apple watches sold, probably another ~50 million Garmins, and 1billion smartphones in the world. Can you imagine this classic mountaineering tale happening today? An GOAT of mountaineering, at risk of major incident 1-2 miles away from the paradise parking lot.
Today, weekend warriors (myself included) ski the muir snowfield during a whiteout by GPS _all the time_. Fatmap & Caltopo & Gaia & Garmin & Strava & Alltrails & WTA will not only prevent you from drifting into the Nisqually drainage like a compass bearing would, they will ensure you find the 50-meter-wide panorama face with your eyes shut. ~5 day old hi-def satellite imagery with slope angles, the works.
A certain part of me is saddened by this, knowing that I will probably never need to do 'orienteering' with a physical topo, compass, and altimeter again that I learned as a child. Of course, it's a valuable skill to bring to any group for when things go south. The odds of devices running out of battery are highly correlated with being overdue and taking longer than expected, so cascading failures of systems are possible (aka, trailrunner sprains ankle = 5 hour slowdown, then nav battery runs out due to the delay, etc). Not perfect but it's nonetheless plausible that the _average_ paradise visitor today is better equipped to get down the muir snowfield in a whiteout than 20th century elite mountaineers (or checking the forecast to avoid it in the first place).
4) Weather reports are bulletproof now. Today's 5-day forcast is as good as a 1980 1-day forecast
https://bigthink.com/hard-science/weather-forecasts-have-improved/
These four combine to result in light & fast loadouts being more common, stuff like this being the new norm (warning - shorts!):
Secret Agent Man, zimmertr
Secret Agent Man, zimmertr
|
Back to top |
|
|
BigBrunyon Member
Joined: 19 Mar 2015 Posts: 1450 | TRs | Pics Location: the fitness gyms!! |
You need to make the adjustment to the faster modern pace and compete. If you can't run with Big Dogs then stay on the SIDE!!! Whoever's going faster ALWAYS has the right of way!!!! And the right to use force if need be to clear the way. Make the adjustment to the faster modern pace or get out of the way!!!
Chief Joseph
Chief Joseph
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Disclosure: As an Amazon Associate NWHikers.net earns from qualifying purchases when you use our link(s).
|