Forum Index > Trail Talk > Landslide blocks access to Johnston Ridge at Mt St Helens
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altasnob
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PostThu May 18, 2023 9:22 am 
Randito wrote:
I find it hilarious that someone going into conniptions over a road being built to do some work on the tunnel has no issue with digging out the debris dam , which be many many times more disruptive to the natural recovery process than the road.
You would be helping the lake drain in its natural direction. Using modeling of the terrain, you could dig a trench in the exact location that the water would go if you closed the dam and left the area untouched. You would be allowing natural geographic erosion to take place, which, is naturally destructive of nature. I don't consider this more intrusive than artificially diverting the lake though a mountain, which includes the road and equipment (and equipment in the lake on barges) needed to maintain that tunnel. And the only reason you would help the lake in this direction is to minimize the floor risk for people living downstream. It's a olive branch to them; a compromise short of just letting the lake do its thing. I am planning for a thousand years, not 100. At some point in man's history, the lake will go this route. Here's a map showing the approximate location of the new road. I put in a red line to show just how short of a diversion ditch you would have to dig to start getting the lake to flow into its natural drainage. You tell me what you think is worse for the environment long term?

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Kim Brown
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PostThu May 18, 2023 9:42 am 
Management of any project includes assessment, re-assessment, adjust, and failure. According to JPH's fine post, the Feds may not need to "own up" to any knee-jerk accusatory assumption at all, at least not about this particular event. It is too bad Spirit Lake can't do what it want's to do, but....at what cost. To elevate I-5 would mean pilings - lots of them. Which would easily collapse during a lahar. It may be better that the stuff flow over it (I can't recall exactly what this rebuttal is for, but someone suggested elevating I-5). With the possible exception of people living in Wauconda or Iowa (does anything happen there?) or a certain locale in Florida, none of us are immune to catastrophe, and many of them are exacerbated by human engineering. It's part of humanity's desire to control pesky nature, and we just can't help it. [list] [*]Floodplains wouldn't be so floody if we hadn't destroyed approx. 50% of our wetlands [*]Puget Sound might drop in an earthquake [*]The coast wiped out in a tsunami as a result of an earthquake elsewhere. [*]Hawaii is practically a fricken' volcano. [*]Tornado alley is a pretty big swath. [*]People drop into holes leading to the giant natural caverns and coal mines in Kentucky. [*]Hurricane Katrina. [*]The bread basket of the US can be wiped out by another Dust Bowl - but due to assessment, re-assessment, adjust - it is less likely than it once was. [*]Floodplains are everywhere (see above comment about the destruction of wetlands). [*]The town of Darrington once sold t-shirts that read, "Darrington: Conveniently located on unstable lahar debris," or some such thing (funny at the time; since Oso - not). Anyway, this is an interesting thread, and I am learning some stuff I didn't know.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert

Anne Elk
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altasnob
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PostThu May 18, 2023 9:47 am 
idoru wrote:
I guess I was more curious about your perspective on logistics and costs around the idea of relocating the area
I don't think you have to get up and relocate everyone in the flood plain overnight. It all depends on what alternative you chose, from letting the lake run its course naturally to easing it in that direction over time. The flood risk of Longview and Kelso is a possibility, not a guarantee. Keep in mind, even with the status quo, if the tunnel fails in an emergency (reasonably likely) the government may not be able to repair it fast enough to avert a catastrophic flood. So if you live in this flood plain, you are already assuming the risk. I wouldn't buy property there and would self-relocate. Here's a good article from High Country News that lays out the issues. The Forest Service is well aware of these issues, but like Randy, wants to use environmentalist and scientist as scapegoats for going with the lowest cost, most environmentally damaging alternative: https://crosscut.com/2020/05/manmade-threat-growing-beneath-mount-st-helens

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altasnob
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PostThu May 18, 2023 9:54 am 
Here's a photo I snapped a few years ago above the exact location we are talking about

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Ski
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PostThu May 18, 2023 10:30 am 
altasnob - I'm not really sure I understand the details here - the hydraulic issue itself - but it may be worth considering that the Chicago River has been running backwards for well over a hundred years and there don't seem to be a great number of negative consequences currently. Man historically has done some pretty radical things when it comes to diverting water.

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Kim Brown
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PostThu May 18, 2023 10:58 am 
Just saw this on the USGS Volcano Facebook page. It appears human activity was well underway before the tunnel was installed. Apparently there never has been much regard for how human activity exacerbates the potential for flooding homes downstream.
MountStHelens, May 18, 1980, 7:00 AM: Totally clear, no activity.
MountStHelens, May 18, 1980, 7:00 AM: Totally clear, no activity.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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altasnob
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PostThu May 18, 2023 11:27 am 
Ski wrote:
I'm not really sure I understand the details here - the hydraulic issue itself - but it may be worth considering that the Chicago River has been running backwards for well over a hundred years and there don't seem to be a great number of negative consequences currently.
No, the tunnel flows downhill. There is no pump. I read the Chicago River has naturally ran both directions for as long as man has existed. It's the low spot between the Mississippi and Great Lakes and naturally would go back and forth between them, making it an ideal spot for man to inhabit.

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treeswarper
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PostThu May 18, 2023 11:46 am 
Kim Brown wrote:
Just saw this on the USGS Volcano Facebook page. It appears human activity was well underway before the tunnel was installed. Apparently there never has been much regard for how human activity exacerbates the potential for flooding homes downstream.
MountStHelens, May 18, 1980, 7:00 AM: Totally clear, no activity.
MountStHelens, May 18, 1980, 7:00 AM: Totally clear, no activity.
=
That's exactly what I have been trying to 'splain. The early settlers didn't give a damn about volcanos. They cared more about finding level ground that could grow food, and sometimes the value of the fish and lumber. I doubt anybody in the 1800s discussed the historic routes of lahars. It was more of, how much black powder is it going to take to blow up this big stump? kind of thinking. My dad, who was from nearby that area, somehow aquired a drilling kind of tool that made holes for the powder. He mentioned blowing up various downed trees and selling firewood. My memory banks recall that Baker was considered more likely to erupt than St. Helens prior to St. Helens starting to act up. This was in the 1970s. Ancient history.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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altasnob
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PostThu May 18, 2023 12:21 pm 
Prior to the eruption, St Helens was just another boring Cascade volcano surrounded by clear cuts. It wasn't wilderness as it wasn't very unique. But after the eruption, it is one of the most unique, most ecologically fascinating, most scientifically studied places on planet earth. The eruption increased the argument for protection, not weakened it. It would be declared wilderness but for all the manipulation man has to do to it with heavy machinery due to the people who enjoy their heavily subsidized life downstream.

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Randito
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PostThu May 18, 2023 1:09 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
My memory banks recall that Baker was considered more likely to erupt than St. Helens prior to St. Helens starting to act up. This was in the 1970s. Ancient history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Baker wrote:
In early March 1975, a dramatic increase in fumarolic activity and snow melt in the Sherman Crater area raised concern that an eruption might be imminent.[27] Heat flow increased more than tenfold.[9][34] Additional monitoring equipment was installed and several geophysical surveys were conducted to try to detect the movement of magma.[27] The increased thermal activity prompted public officials and Puget Power to temporarily close public access to the popular Baker Lake recreation area and to lower the reservoir's water level by 33 feet (10 m). If those actions had not been taken,[citation needed] significant avalanches of debris from the Sherman Crater area could have swept directly into the reservoir, triggering a disastrous wave that could have caused human fatalities and damage to the reservoir.[41][48] Other than the increased heat flow, few anomalies were recorded during the geophysical surveys, nor were any other precursory activities observed that would indicate that magma was moving up into the volcano.[27] Several small lahars formed from material ejected onto the surrounding glaciers and acidic water was discharged into Baker Lake for many months.[9][34] Activity gradually declined over the next two years, but stabilized at a higher level than before 1975.[9][34] The increased level of fumarolic activity has continued at Mount Baker since 1975, but no other changes suggest that magma movement is involved.[27]
So it might be ancient, but Mt Baker's fumarols are still busy.

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treeswarper
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PostThu May 18, 2023 3:05 pm 
altasnob wrote:
Prior to the eruption, St Helens was just another boring Cascade volcano surrounded by clear cuts. It wasn't wilderness as it wasn't very unique. But after the eruption, it is one of the most unique, most ecologically fascinating, most scientifically studied places on planet earth. The eruption increased the argument for protection, not weakened it. It would be declared wilderness but for all the manipulation man has to do to it with heavy machinery due to the people who enjoy their heavily subsidized life downstream.
Come on, everybody is subsidized. That's an overused and tired excuse. Now the blast area is one big recovering clearcut. However, the part that was reforested has timber that is the size/age for a commercial thin. biggrin.gif biggrin.gif Randito: Thanks for dredging up the Mt. Baker history. Today is the day of the big blast and I was remembering the darkness coming up the coulee. My dad mentioned that the volcano must have done something and we should put a sheet down to see if we could collect some ash. When it arrived, it was more serious than we expected, but there was no news on the radio and the Spokane TV stations had the usual sports on. There was no news until it hit Spokane. No internet then....

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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treeswarper
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PostThu May 18, 2023 3:16 pm 
A little story about the car situation. Poor people!

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities

fourteen410, jaysway, zimmertr
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Pyrites
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PostThu May 18, 2023 4:57 pm 
Can car roof痴 structurally support the normal snow pack?

Keep Calm and Carry On? Heck No. Stay Excited and Get Outside!
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Randito
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PostThu May 18, 2023 7:10 pm 
Pyrites wrote:
Can car roof痴 structurally support the normal snow pack?
Depends on where the car is, a car stuck on a logging road popular with snowmobiles in the winter, it's less about the snowpack and more about whether it makes a nice feature to use as a jump. The batteries will certainly be dead, probably before the end of the summer.

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treeswarper
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PostThu May 18, 2023 8:41 pm 
I'm thinking that some ambitious thieves will get in there and do some stealing of car parts as time goes by.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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