[treeswarper]

[treeswarper]

An example of Designation By Diameter (at stump level) marking. The unmarked tree in the background stays. The X trees are cut. This was in a different area on a different sale than the helicopter unit. This is south of Packwood and was conventionally logged--roads already existing.

[Kim Brown]

[timberghost]

Yea my father was a faller on that fire. We used to do alot of thinning when I Worked for the DNR. Then they started contracting to Russians and Mexicans. Then went away from ding much of it.

[Dick B]

Here is some more trivia about dog hair timber stands and thinning. I learned in silviculture class that forest soils were classified into 5 different sites. Site 1 was the best and site 5 the worst. Forest growth differed depending on the site they were growing on. Once we did a study in an area where sites varied from 1 in a creek bottom to 5 at the top of a rocky ridge. The study was done in an un-thinned even aged Doug fir stand. It was amazing how the stand differed from the creek to the ridge. The creek stand was nearing old growth conditions and the trees were well spaced. The ridge top stuff was still tightly packed. Ridge height and diameters were probably a third, or less, of the creek trees. It proved to me that that trees on better sites will quickly establish dominance and the lesser trees will be over shadowed and die out. At least that is how I remember how trees grew back in my day. I don't know if it is still that way or not. :>) As mentioned, thinning will accelerate the process to an open, old growth type stand. When we were doing commercial thinnings, we used special tree marking paint. The trees to cut were marked at chest height, and also at the base. Every stump left after logging better have some orange paint on it. I was told the paint had some kind of tracer in it. This was a check so the logger didn't go to a hardware store and buy a can of spray paint and mark his own stumps. I don't think there was any nefarious activity on sales I worked on.

[Ski]

[trestle]

It's almost like forestry management is scientific and more than a binary choice between logging or letting everything grow. Who'd have thought

[Kim Brown]

[Ski]

^ well.... there ya go, Kim... there WERE roads there (or rail access) which is how it got cut in the first place. But even really really old clearcut units (or burned over units) don't naturally re-seed to that degree of density - that's a replanted stand. ==== One of the thickest, over-crowded, naturally-re-seeded stands I know of are the ones on either side of the Park Service Road which begins at the end of the 2180-010 road (at the top) and terminates (at the bottom) where it joins the Lower Queets Road. Those units were clearcut at some point in the 1920s (per communications with J. Latterell (UW Fisheries) back in 2009 - notes are in the "Queets Road" thread.) They're naturally re-seeded - predominantly Western Hemlock with a bit of Sitka Spruce. The trees are over a hundred years old and not many exceed 15 inch DBH - proximity to each other can be measured in inches. Really kind of a "no mans land" - there is virtually NO understory growth other than a smattering of sword fern - ergo: no food for any herbivores. Per Ruth Kirk's "The Olympic Rainforest", if we are willing to wait about 1500 years, it will at some point reach that "late seral" stage. (Provided, of course, it does not succumb to fire, disease, or wind in the meantime.) If you really believe there is time available, notwithstanding the high likelihood of it going up in flames (or, more likely being knocked down by the wind), then by all means sit back and "let nature take its course." Any good poker player will tell you those are not the odds you want to be playing.

[Kim Brown]

[Ski]

^ Exactly. There are stands like that all over the west. Overstocked. Relatively no understory growth. Stunted development because they're so close together. Options are: No management. Result = continuation of same conditions until interrupted by fire, disease, or wind. Further management. Result = depends upon management prescription. Most of those stands could well use pre-commercial or commercial thinning. Many (like treeswarper's photos above, which look like the stuff that was up on the 55 road above Randle) should be more radically managed - taking out more wood - to accelerate development of late-seral stage forest. Some could well be selectively harvested for timber harvest (provided the material is large enough to make it economically viable - many of those stands won't produce anything of value at present.) Leaving as is: Analogous to buying a brand new car and leaving it out in the rain with the keys in the switch and all the doors open - imprudent waste of resources.

[altasnob]

People assume that just because there was once a road used to log these lands that that road can still be used. Most of those roads have washed out sections and have fallen into disrepair. The costs to put them back into service would be astronomical and doesn't pencil out if you are rebuilding the road just to thin a forests one time.

[Ski]

^ You'd have to figure "cost effectiveness" on a case by case basis, but that's not a factor taken into consideration when you're dealing with federal forest lands. There's no mandate that says they have to make a profit, or even break even. That's not part of their mission statement. In the end, whether it's "cost effective" or not is irrelevant. You may as well try to argue about the "cost effectiveness" of implementing the Endangered Species Act - a bottomless money pit if ever there was one. There are a lot of abandoned roads out there that were never decommissioned or rehabilitated - all that's required generally is to run a blade down the length of them and knock down the little alders that spring up. You see it all the time up on the Peninsula. If they don't rehab it when they're done generally they'll ditch and berm it to keep yahoos out. Depends upon what potential future "plans" might be.

[Ski]

^ And you're overlooking that a pre-commercial thin really doesn't require any road construction. You're talking about a couple guys on foot wielding chainsaws knocking stuff down left and right. West side they'll just drop it and let it rot - it doesn't last long. No roads necessary - you only need the road to pull material out.

[Cyclopath]