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PostSun Feb 11, 2024 11:40 pm 
California couple sentenced for tannerite-caused wildfire personally, I would have preferred 9,000 years in jail for both of them with no monetary penalties, but that's just my lousy opinion.

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timberghost
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PostThu Feb 15, 2024 6:59 am 
9000 that's more than life without the possibility of parole. It's interesting to see the USFS is putting up more gates now. Possibly to shut down the woods as more of the climate change occurs?

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PostThu Feb 15, 2024 7:07 am 
timberghost wrote:
It's interesting to see the USFS is putting up more gates now. Possibly to shut down the woods as more of the climate change occurs?
More likely garbage and damage to roads plus a few wildlife restrictions. Once again, too many people not enough law enforcement.

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PostMon Feb 19, 2024 5:04 pm 
NacMacFeegle wrote:
Tom_Sjolseth wrote:
Target shooters belong - they are a user group that is permitted to use these lands that THEY own too.
But why do they need to practice in National Forests? Nothing about the activity would seem require the use of public land.
Tom_Sjolseth wrote:
While I agree that all user groups should be responsible and good stewards of the land, it does not mean that because some yardbird leaves his spent shell casings and a television set, that everyone else gets punished because of it.
Considering that wherever target shooting occurs one also finds large quantities of garbage, it would seem that it is bad target shooters who are the majority. Even if this were not the case the noise inherent to the use of guns makes targeting shooting a discourteous activity. Discharging firearms should be just as illegal in National Forests as it is in National Parks.
Tom_Sjolseth wrote:
Same way with hiking. Just because some hiker trundles a rock and kills someone below them (which has happened), not everyone should be banned from the land because somebody else deemed it a dangerous type of recreation.
Again, the "hikers can be bad too" argument is a dumb one because hiking is at its core the most low impact form of recreation, whereas target shooting (and indeed hunting and ORVs) is a high impact activity to start out with. A lot of hikers have to behave really badly to be as bad as a target shooter, a hunter, or a motorhead. As our public lands become more crowded it is logical to remove the activities that have the highest impact on other peoples experience and on the environment. Mindlessly repeating "because freedom" as an argument for any given activity to be given a place on public land is stupid. If someone's shooting drives someone away from public land then that has impacted their freedom to use that land. When people practice high impact forms of recreation on public land it drives other lower impact forms of recreation away, thus negating the idea of "multiple use". "Multiple use" does not mean all uses must be allowed. You could ban a dozen different activities from National Forests and have them still have them be multi-use.
Flaming the "because freedom" argument is a straw man that ignores what it means to be a republic. Unfortunately this kind of thinking is caused by not understanding the U.S.A. is a republic, and what that actually means. Hence the term 'public'. Believing the U.S.A. is a democracy is also NOT correct, although the U.S.A. implements a democracy to "run the place". The U.S. Constitution protects the core rights of "We the People" of the republic. It does this by limiting the power of government to restrict use of public land, and other rights. For example, similar lands in Canada and the U.K. are called "Crown" lands, which technically belong to a "sovereign". The U.S.A. has no such sovereign and instead vests all powers and rights in "We the People", the pubic - who then in turn grant limited powers (NOT rights) to government. So target shooting is prohibited in public NPS and Wilderness areas (good!), but allowed in National Forests and other public lands WITH proper regulations (also good). There are many other activities which are regulated in a similar manner such as dispersed camping, firewood cutting, transplant sourcing, grazing, etc... Some with paid permit requirements. Most people also fail to understand that National Forests are mainly "Working Lands" managed by the Department of Agriculture primarily as a forest products national resource (yes, logging). IMHO most people today would be totally shocked by the amount of impact that occurred 100+ years ago on public lands in the western U.S., and especially the PNW. The scars from that era's logging and also mining are still evident today if you know where to look. Some of these "scarred" areas make great target shooting locations due to how the land was excavated for use as logging/mining infrastructure. They're usually located away from recreation areas which is also a plus AND consistent with target shooting regulations. My favorites are "hike to" areas that aren't accessed via any hiking trails. It's always best to "leave no trace" in the areas and to pack out more garbage than what you created. Believing target shooting somehow does not "require the use of public land" is naive, especially because it also ignores the right to carry firearms on public land while participating in other activities like hiking, backpacking, etc.... Dedicated shooting ranges cannot match the level of proficiency gained by running self defense target drills in the same or similar environment where a firearm might be needed. We have the right to carry a firearm for self defense in NPS and Wilderness areas, so it's a very good idea to use NF lands to practice proper self defense skills in a similar setting. Unfortunately ignorant people dump garbage on public land all the time. Shooting areas are especially affected because nearby residents seem to be dumping garbage at known shooting pits mainly to get them shut down. I've personally witnessed this type of activity. And yes, there are irresponsible target shooters. It's best if everyone understands what the regulations are and report violations to authorities. If I was hiking on a marked trail and noticed bullets wizzing nearby I would NOT hesitate to call 911 or activate the SOS on my satellite transponder.

Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

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Brucester
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PostMon Feb 19, 2024 9:15 pm 
I've called law enforcement about both abandoned vehicles and bullets crossing trails. The problems still exist. I have little faith in the system. McCellan Bute Trail, beware there's a target area above this trail just as you approach the gravel road if you start at the trailhead. Be careful as the target shooters aren't!

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PostTue Feb 20, 2024 12:03 am 
Brucester wrote:
The problems still exist. I have little faith in the system.
Umm.. this can be said about anything... Crime rates are increasing across the board. So is gun ownership because the right to armed self defense is protected by the constitution. This is the direct result of de-policing policy being implemented. The amount of new gun owners in WA skyrocketed as all the weapons bans were being implemented. Gun sales went through the roof before everything was passed. I can't count the number of people I saw buying their first brand new semiautomatic handgun, and an AR-15 (or 2) before sales were banned. Shooting ranges are closing down in Washington State due to the unconstitutional laws being enacted. The ranges themselves aren't a direct target but most ranges also are FFLs (gun dealers). So get used to people target shooting on public lands. Many are firing their AR-15 for the very first time! I would prefer they take those first shots at a controlled shooting range under supervision of a qualified rangemaster; but our WA faux "pseudo sovereign" rulers put a lot of those folks on the unemployment line. The main reason I picked up rifle plates is for use at public shooting pits (or traveling to downtown Seattle moon.gif ). I wouldn't worry too much about the McCellan Bute Trail. An AR-15 is only lethal to about 500 yards. Rounds can possibly travel about twice that distance, but they're only as harmful as a .22lr out that far. And as we all know, a .22 can't "Blow out a lung" like a 9mm! wink.gif BTW, thanks for the target pit tip. I always assumed that area was totally covered by the Snoqualmie target shooting closure, but looks like a few areas are open. Edit: improved descriptions of those responsible for this mess

Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

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PostTue Feb 20, 2024 7:33 am 
Vertec wrote:
Most people also fail to understand that National Forests are mainly "Working Lands" managed by the Department of Agriculture primarily as a forest products national resource (yes, logging). IMHO most people today would be totally shocked by the amount of impact that occurred 100+ years ago on public lands in the western U.S., and especially the PNW.
You are behind the times. National Forests are no longer "mainly" working lands. Especially in the PNW. Go research the Northwest Forest Plan. That has severely limited any more cutting timber for the sake of timber. Look at how many mills are no longer running. Logging is now limited to "mainly" commercial thinning in westside National Forests, and the same, plus fuels reduction on the eastside. But nevermind, due to your name calling and political ranting, I expect this thread will close. I'd like to see specifics of folks deliberately dumping garbage to get an area closed down. I have never heard of this but have seen the usual TV dumped and then shot, in the woods. I worked in the woods for 3 decades, unarmed 'cept for maybe a pocket knife, if I didn't lose it somewhere. I'd think that freedom to not get shot in the woods is pretty important to my liberty and happiness. That's mentioned in that document also. Idaho is calling you......

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PostTue Feb 20, 2024 11:46 am 
treeswarper wrote:
You are behind the times. National Forests are no longer "mainly" working lands. Especially in the PNW. Go research the Northwest Forest Plan. That has severely limited any more cutting timber for the sake of timber. Look at how many mills are no longer running. Logging is now limited to "mainly" commercial thinning in westside National Forests, and the same, plus fuels reduction on the eastside. But nevermind, due to your name calling and political ranting, I expect this thread will close. I'd like to see specifics of folks deliberately dumping garbage to get an area closed down. I have never heard of this but have seen the usual TV dumped and then shot, in the woods. I worked in the woods for 3 decades, unarmed 'cept for maybe a pocket knife, if I didn't lose it somewhere. I'd think that freedom to not get shot in the woods is pretty important to my liberty and happiness. That's mentioned in that document also. Idaho is calling you......
I'm all for improved forestry management, especially thinning and fuel reduction. My point was more about how some areas were used in the past, which makes them suitable for responsible target shooting today. I made a wrong turn while looking for a shooting pit and ending up going past a nearby populated area where I noticed a parked pickup truck full of junk appliances. I eventually found the pit and spent the late afternoon there. I finished cleaning up just before dark. While I was driving out I noticed that same pickup truck parked down a intersecting road so I drove up past a bend and waited before heading back toward the pit. I approached the pit in stealth mode and witnessed the garbage being dumped. It was too dark to get a plate number so I just got out of there. I was shooting my suppressed carbine with subsonic ammo that day so they probably didn't even know I was there. I remember hearing a truck approaching then turning around just before the pit, but didn't see it. To be courteous I always cease fire if I hear a vehicle approaching while I'm at a pit. Nobody needs a surprise. Littering is a societal problem that we all have to deal with. Shooting pit stewardship is a big topic on the Reddit WA shooting forums where clean up days are frequently organized. Some dumping activity (outside, but nearby a pit) was also identified, and a bunch of people went out and cleaned it up. Expecting the freedom not to get shot anywhere is understandable. Turns out that's becoming more of a problem on Seattle area highways than anywhere in the woods (so much for all our new gun laws). Freedom from hearing gunshots is also a reasonable expectation in NPS and Wilderness areas. But expecting a freedom from hearing target shooting in National Forests is unreasonable. I mainly shoot suppressed because stealth is your friend, especially when I visit my "hidden" target areas. I was never there smile.gif I'm not answering the calls from Idaho because I stocked up before all the unconstitutional WA laws were enacted. I have 30 round magazines coming "out of the daemon hole". I even bought two 30 round mags for my handguns which I'll probably never even use moon.gif But soon SCOTUS will take that call and strike down all this nonsense nationwide. They may even go further and possibly eliminate the WA / state bans on full auto (which are legal to own in many other states - boom). So you might have to get used to hearing full auto fire on WA public lands just like in Oregon! That sound of freedom certainly makes an impression! Government overreach can also have consequences. Edit/add: I know some target shooting areas have been (rightly) closed due to nearby private property damage caused by stray gunfire. But are there any documented cases of people in WA being hit by stray bullets while recreating nearby?

Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

Dave Workman, Chief Joseph
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PostTue Feb 20, 2024 12:13 pm 
Milepost 6.5 on the Sultan Basin Road
Vertec, if you know any shooters who like to do pit cleanup, here is a spot for them, although I don稚 know how they could 田lean up the shot up trees. Not sure how they could clean up this either. Wildfire caused by shooters at the Shaw Pit on the Sultan Basin Road last fall.

fourteen410, zimmertr  RichP  Anne Elk
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PostTue Feb 20, 2024 12:22 pm 
Nancyann wrote:
Milepost 6.5 on the Sultan Basin Road
This is so trashy lol. In more ways than one.

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PostTue Feb 20, 2024 3:46 pm 
Nancyann wrote:
if you know any shooters who like to do pit cleanup, here is a spot for them, although I don稚 know how they could 田lean up the shot up trees.
Yup, that痴 a mess, also made worse by new WA gun laws. After semiautomatic rifle sales were banned, semiautomatic shotguns started flying off the shelves, along with all those spent shells. Unlike spent brass rifle casings, shot shells have zero salvage value. I use a brass catcher on my carbines, and pick up more spent brass than I drop. Sometimes it can be missed but most brass left behind gets cleaned up by others due to its salvage value. But those photos are still less of a mess than what I致e seen leaking out of cars the 適ia Boys leave in the woods, which is also a problem created by bad legislation. You can post that location on r/WAGuns and someone will definitely respond. IFAIK, everything along Sultan Basin was closed a long time ago. Not sure if a cleanup will be organized for a closed area. Leaving the closed areas trashed to compare with the clean open areas is probably good PR for the responsible shooting community? I wouldn稚 expect the shooting community to clean up a trashed Kia either. But if that was an open area a cleanup would definitely be organized. There are even contacts established with WA DNR to coordinate cleanups. Shooting trees is also a violation but again this is made worse by all the people taking their first shots with a new shotgun in the woods instead of a controlled shooting range w/rangemaster supervision. As I致e said, new WA gun laws have caused range closures. Fires in target areas are more likely to be caused by improper garbage burning than shooting. Discarded cigarette butts have caused way more wildfires than target shooting. I知 still amazed by the amount of discarded cigarette butt litter I see hiking in the PNW. Also very sad. Speaking of butts, here痴 two from a few years ago:
Due to the style of his shirt, and being on the other side of the railing at Mather Point (South Rim) I mistakenly thought this idiot was NPS staff attending to an issue. After I snapped the photo I realized he was just a stupid foreign tourist who hopped the railing to hide while smoking (which I didn稚 notice at first). My wife chewed me out later because he was speaking French, like what was your first clue (she knows French)? I also missed the 鄭ustralia Zoo decor, but I don稚 think he worked there either. After snapping the photo the guy saw me and approached with a defiant look, but he stopped when he saw what I was open carrying on my belt. I politely said 展elcome to the USA. Please be careful, wouldn稚 want you see you go down under. On that same trip I also saw how NPS Rangers in the GC don稚 take kindly to irresponsible smoking:
We were following this idiot while an NPS Ranger was directly behind us. Smoke had been billowing out her window for a while, but as soon as she flicked ash out the window the Ranger lit them up and pulled her over. Great to see a rare win.

Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

Chief Joseph
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PostTue Feb 20, 2024 4:36 pm 
Thanks for your response, Vertec. There are No Shooting signs all up and down the Sultan Basin Road, but most of them have bullet holes in them and there is plenty of shooting going on every single day, particularly at the two locations I shared in the previous photos. Enforcement has not worked because as soon as the officer goes home at 4, it痴 like the Wild West out there. It痴 too bad, because it creates the impression that all target shooters are lawbreaking gun nuts. I have talked to many over the years while trying to hike up in the Basin, and most are courteous and respectful, but there always seems to be a few who ruin it for everyone else.

fourteen410, philfort, Chief Joseph
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PostTue Feb 20, 2024 5:50 pm 
Thanks Nancyann! I would encourage you and others here to please check out r/WAGuns on Reddit. Of course it's reddit tongue.gif so expect some "dust ups" over "hot" issues, and poor grammar. But I hope it can provide at least some visibility of mostly responsible people who are trying to do things right. There is a huge amount of frustration due the recent unconstitutional gun laws enacted in Washington. None of which are doing any good to control violent crime. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the vandalism in the Sultan Basin is caused by idiots venting such frustration. I jumped into this thread with the hope of showing how some these stupid new gun laws can be making the problem worse. Closing viable target shooting areas will not make the situation better because people will just seek out new places to shoot. Luckily we have a responsible local community who is trying to do the right things by keeping those areas reasonably clean.

Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
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PostTue Feb 20, 2024 10:34 pm 
Quote:
Crime rates are increasing across the board
nope

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PostWed Feb 21, 2024 1:07 pm 
rubywrangler wrote:
Quote:
Crime rates are increasing across the board
nope
I was referring to WA state. https://cde.ucr.cjis.gov/LATEST/webapp/#/pages/explorer/crime/crime-trend Click on Washington to see FBI crime data. Select "All Violent" or "All Property" crime (or each specific). The FBI data is only available through 2022, so even if there are slight decreases for 2023 the yearly numbers will still be significantly higher than pre 2020 levels. Seattle crime data for 2023 was released last week and showed a 23% increase in murder. It also reported a 10% decrease in property crime, but that figure has be criticized because people aren't bothering to report a lot of property crime. With 400 less officers than 2017 victims have been conditioned to accept that Seattle police are useless, so reporting property crime is a waste of time. But the subject of this thread is NF target shooting which is related to armed self defense. WA Violent crime has trended upwards since 2020 while new ineffective gun laws were enacted. This created many new gun owners who bought guns before sales were restricted. Ranges have shut down due to new laws. Hence the increase in target shooting on public lands.

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