[Quark]

We know it isn't free - that's what taxes are for. The thing that is angering people is the additional fees.

[jenjen]

[Newt]

Why not a fee to use the sidewalks and crosswalks? Why should cars pay? They don't use them. And why not a bicycle tax? They use the roads and streets. Money is spent in providing additional road/street width for them. Bicycle signs and symbols too? Who pays for these? How about trails such as the Burke Gilman? Constructiuon/maint costs to the trail and parking lots? Who pays? I don't know, so I'm just asking. Free Willie? Free Tibet? Free Trade? How About.... Free America!! Just my opinion. N

[Slugman]

Newt! You're not a newbie anymore! How long did that take?

[polarbear]

[Newt]

[cheakamus]

Thanks for posting the census data, Polarbear! Looks like the median income for Seattlites is about $45K, i.e., half the households in the city make less. At $45K, I say you have to watch your pennies! You may or may not be able to afford an annual forest pass, depending on what your other expenses are (medical, for instance). When our kids were small, we used to have a zoo and aquarium pass. As the pass got more expensive, we dropped the aquarium part. Finally, when it got really expensive (and okay, the kids got older) we dropped the pass altogether. Now, we never visit the zoo! (I don't really miss it because at the same time it got more expensive, I began to find it more and more depressing to visit.) Now the politicians are trying to give the zoo its own regional taxing authority so everyone can pay for an ever-more-gradiose facility that not everyone can afford to visit. It always irks me when someone wants taxpayers to fund something and they say, "It's just a latte a day." I don't drink a latte a day. I don't even drink a latte a week. I probably drink a latte a month, if that! It's not that I absolutely can't afford it--it's just that I have other budgetary priorities (like college for kids, retirement, long-term health care insurance, etc.). So, yes, the forest pass is unfair and an unreasonable burden on a significant portion of the population.

[Stefan]

[Slugman]

Stefan, people often pay more than that when they first move in, hoping to get raises down the road, while the mortgage stays relatively steady. Also, many people bought their houses long ago. If you were to look at the median cost of a Seattle house on the day it purchased, it would be much less than the value now, and less than the median home sale now. Many folks could not afford to re-buy their own home now. Even more important is the fact that many people rent because they can't buy. That said, I really don't know if the figures are accurate. I know that Tanja and I made about 90k between us when we bought our house, and Seattle, West Seattle, Shoreline even, were right out. We moved to Lynnwood as the closest place we could get a nice house on a nice property for under 200k, three and a half years ago. Everything in those other places was either a tear-down, or a postage-stamp lot on a busy street. The median income of home buyers is more than the median for all, due to the renters mentioned above.

[Dale]

Do any of you know of a site that lists ALL the different fees? For example I just purchased a 2004 $50 State Parks fee but while surfing for groomed ski trails I found this information: http://www.parks.wa.gov/parking/ A Natural Investment Permit The Washington State Parks and Recreation Commission requires a daily or annual fee (A Natural Investment) for the following activities in state parks systemwide: Vehicle parking Watercraft launching Trailer dumping The commission set the daily permit fee at $7 daily and $70 for an annual permit. This permit is discounted to $5 daily and $50 annually until 2006. Besides, I thought I paid for lauching my kayak/canoe with my hunting and fishing license. I am about to give up and stay home. Maybe that is what the government wants me to do. But if I do my spirits will fall, by belly will get bigger, and I may require some serious government sickness care. Tradeoffs, tradeoffs, politics the art of the possible. Dale

[Slugman]

I believe you're safe with the canoe thing. The boat launch fee is for those who back trailers into the water at boat launches, or who use mechanical boat launchers, like used to exist at Point No Point. Just putting a kayak or canoe into the water by hand is covered by the entrance/parking fee. I just found out that my new, $20 sno-park pass isn't good at all sno-parks. Oh, no. That would be too simple, a sno-park pass that lets me park at all sno-parks. Some sno-parks are located at groomed ski trails, and then I need a special $20 groomed trails sno-park pass, even if I'm going snowshoeing and won't use the groomed trail. Doesn't matter. So then I ask, "So, I can snowshoe on the groomed trail I paid extra for?" No. No snowshoes allowed on the groomed ski trails. I must pay for it, but then can't even use it. Hurts the grooming or some such excuse. So, I am not going to get the groomed trail pass, probably wouldn't have anyway, since most sno-parks don't require it, and I can avoid the ones that do. It just seems silly to ask someone pay extra for some amenity near a parking area, but not let them use it.

[Malachai Constant]

Even worse the groomed areas all forbid dogs and most of them do not actually do any grooming. The biggest pain is the Hyak one which accesses both the "groomed" John Wayne trail and the ungroomed public access corridor to Mt. Catherine and Nordic Pass a nice short backcountry loop. I think there may be a secret agenda to protect the Summits crosscountry fees here. According to my listing Price Greek does not require a sticker but Crystal Springs (major snowmobile hangout) does. I prefer backcountry skiing and grooming is unnecessary.

[cheakamus]

[Dante]