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Allison
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Allison
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PostFri Jul 08, 2005 2:10 pm 
Mike says this in another thread. I'm moving the discussion here because of thread drift.
Dayhike Mike wrote:
ethics: 1, ethics, moral_philosophy. the philosophical study of moral values and rules. ... Perhaps you meant 'etiquette'? "The code that governs the expectations of social behavior, the conventional norm. It is an unwritten code, which evolves from written rules." Still even what is considered poor etiquette is a subjective matter. I just can't see how whether one brings an inanimate device along on a trip implies a lack of ethics. Whether I bring a gun or radio or flashlight along on a trip doesn't say squat about my ethical background. How I use those tools, would...

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Allison
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Allison
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PostFri Jul 08, 2005 2:19 pm 
The term "backcountry ethics" is widely used. Here are a few examples of this: Kaibab Backcountry Ethics TLB Backcountry Ethics LNT Backcountry Ethics So my apologies if the word "ethics" misled anyone in the other thread. In the context of backcountry use, it's widely used. So what's an example of your "backcountry ethics" affecting others? Well, how about food handling and disposal. You don't hang your food, perhaps you even toss your dirty dish water, complete with food bits in it, just outside of your camp. The local critters start figuring out that the campsite's a source of food, human food at that. The impact is that the animals are drawn to the camp, creating a future nuisance for other users, and they eat people food, which is not good for them either. I'd say that's a fine example of how your use affects others. There are a million more examples.

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wildernessed
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wildernessed
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PostFri Jul 08, 2005 5:47 pm 
Live and Let Live, Do No Harm, Go Your Own Way. up.gif

Living in the Anthropocene
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Dayhike Mike
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Dayhike Mike
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PostFri Jul 08, 2005 7:32 pm 
Yep, you're right. They all use the term ethics to describe themselves, but I still claim it's a misuse of the word. What they're proposing are simply common sense and best practices, not anything intrinsically personal. Let's look at the definition of 'ethic' first:
Quote:
eth·ic: 1. a.) A set of principles of right conduct.
Well, again, I definitely agree that those lists are best practices and good advice, but I wouldn't really call anything right or wrong out there.
Quote:
1. b.) A theory or a system of moral values
Nope, morality is a whole 'nuther subjective ball of wax. Don't think morality has anything to do with my behavior in the woods.
Quote:
2. ethics (used with a sing. verb) The study of the general nature of morals and of the specific moral choices to be made by a person; moral philosophy.
ditto the above bit re: morals.
Quote:
3. ethics (used with a sing. or pl. verb) The rules or standards governing the conduct of a person or the members of a profession: medical ethics.
Talking about "rules or standards" is about as close as we get to what those lists comprise. But the relevance of that phrase is nullified by the fact that it's followed by governing the conduct. There's no governance out there. Unless you're breaking a law, like bringing motorized vehicles into a wilderness area, guns into a National Park, dogs into the Enchantments, etc. I don't really think there are any ethical issues involved. Perhaps it's just me and my inherent lack of moral fiber, but calling it 'ethics' like it's some rigid moral code or religious tenets that you must subscribe to still feels like a whole lotta self-righteous BS to me... BTW - I'm still not clear on where in those lists it says I can't bring a FRS / GMRS / UHF radio or cell phone along on my hikes. Is there something inherently "rowdy" about carrying those devices on my person? Edit: Damn. I almost feel like MtnGoat with all that a quotin' and a huffin'. hockeygrin.gif Shuttin' up now.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke "Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment." -Solomon Short
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Lagerman
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Lagerman
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PostFri Jul 08, 2005 7:43 pm 
Quote:
BTW - I'm still not clear on where in those lists it says I can't bring a FRS / GMRS / UHF radio or cell phone along on my hikes. Is there something inherently "rowdy" about carrying those devices on my person?
Just make sure you present your pack list with people here on the board to make sure your equipment is ethical. Its that easy. Why people can't understand that I don't know. Talk to a tree, not a loved one on the trail. Oh, and don't say hi to people you pass on the trail either. That is also highly unethical.

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oosik
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PostFri Jul 08, 2005 9:01 pm 
Quote:
moral [n.] PRON: /'mär&l/, /'mOr&l/ FORMS: morals 1. The significance of a story or event; "the moral of the story is to love thy neighbor"; SYN. lesson. moral [adj.] PRON: /'mär&l/, /'mOr&l/ (§ Homonym: morel) 1. Arising from the sense of right and wrong; "a moral obligation." 2. Concerned with principles of right and wrong or conforming to standards of behavior and character based on those principles; "moral sense"; "a moral scrutiny"; "a moral life." 3. Relating to principles of right and wrong; i.e. to morals or ethics; "moral philosophy." 4. Psychological rather than physical or tangible in effect; "a moral victory"; "moral support." 5. Based on strong likelihood or firm conviction rather than actual evidence; "a moral certainty." ETYM: French, from Italian moralis, from mos, moris, manner, custom, habit, way of life, conduct.
Manners, Customs, Conduct, polite Habits all sound legitimate meanings. Regardless of what word you want to call it, what do you think of the subject? Perhaps you don't want to be in a position to tell someone what to do, but is all behavior encouraged and accepted in the mountains? Any exceptions? Or to bring it back to the topic that started it, are there conditions where something like two-way radios or cell phones are good and other times bad? I would imagine the manners and customs aspect comes into play more when you are talking about how it affects other people.

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Tom
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PostFri Jul 08, 2005 9:20 pm 
Just to clarify, ETYM = etymology (not meaning).

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polarbear
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PostFri Jul 08, 2005 9:51 pm 
Suppose you arrived at Ezura Ekal. There you find a lone hiker sitting on the shore lost in thought. Do you pull out your cell phone and let everyone at home know about your lake bag? Or do you descend into the depths of Stettatttle Creek and make the call from there?

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jenjen
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PostFri Jul 08, 2005 11:20 pm 
I guess I just do my best to not bother anyone else, I expect them to afford me the same courtesy. I think it's entirely possible to use radios or cell phones to keep in contact with other members of your party while not bothering other hikers in the vicinity. It's entirely possible to have a small fire to cook your fish without anyone else ever knowing about it. I think that's part of reducing your impact on a place - being able to be there and enjoy yourself while leaving no traces that you were ever there and bothering no-one.

If life gives you melons - you might be dyslexic
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Allison
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Allison
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PostSat Jul 09, 2005 12:24 am 
Quote:
Talking about "rules or standards" is about as close as we get to what those lists comprise. But the relevance of that phrase is nullified by the fact that it's followed by governing the conduct. There's no governance out there. Unless you're breaking a law, like bringing motorized vehicles into a wilderness area, guns into a National Park, dogs into the Enchantments, etc. I don't really think there are any ethical issues involved. Perhaps it's just me and my inherent lack of moral fiber, but calling it 'ethics' like it's some rigid moral code or religious tenets that you must subscribe to still feels like a whole lotta self-righteous BS to me... BTW - I'm still not clear on where in those lists it says I can't bring a FRS / GMRS / UHF radio or cell phone along on my hikes. Is there something inherently "rowdy" about carrying those devices on my person?
Wow, a sad statement about the whole notion of being a good steward I guess.....

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Dayhike Mike
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Dayhike Mike
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PostSat Jul 09, 2005 12:52 am 
I leave no trace. I don't infringe upon my fellow hikers. I just don't see it as an ethical dilemma. Honestly, pritnear everything on those lists is more or less simple common sense. Packing out one's garbage and cleaning up after oneself is simply good practice whether you're in downtown Seattle or a pristine lake in the North Cascades. The same goes for not feeding wildlife, not infringing upon the experiences of others, keeping control of your dog, and sanitarily disposing of one's used toilet paper. These aren't "ethics" that might be compromised...they're good advice, excellent suggestions, and common sense rules of the road. I find it humorous that the question that spurred this thread was:
Quote:
So, by that logic, should it be ethical to bring whatever you want into the backcountry for your safety?*
Can you give me a couple examples of equipment that you'd feel would compromise your ethical standing by their mere presence in your pack? If your life were endangered and you had said item in hand, would you use it to save your life?

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke "Ignorance is natural. Stupidity takes commitment." -Solomon Short
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Stuart
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PostThu Jul 14, 2005 7:38 am 
Semantics seem to be the root of silly debates. That being said, all you need for safety is shelter, first aid kit, water, a knife or multitool, map and a compass. Anything else is just a luxury. And I can't really think of anything that's sole purpose is to make you feel safe, that could be construed as unethical. The only thing that some people feel the need to carry into the backcountry that worries me, are guns. And i wouldn't say carrying a gun is unethical, immoral, or bad etiquette. They just make me nervous. But as long as nobody can see or hear it, is it really hurting anyone else? Just keep it packed away till you finally realise it's not worth packing the extra weight. smile.gif Carry whatever you want. Just be courteous about it. Try to remember, your in someone elses home. And you should act accordingly. redface.gif

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