Forum Index > Full Moon Saloon > Goodbye Columbia and crew....
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polarbear
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PostMon Feb 03, 2003 8:13 pm 
If we didn't have a few strong opinions on this board there would be little to talk about at all. Like I said before, I wish I could have been there when BPJ ran into Allison at that outdoor gear place. A classic coinciding that can't be attributed merely to fate lol.gif lol.gif lol.gif lol.gif
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Whose lives were most important? That's an unanswerable question.
Agreed. It's fortunately impossible for us to assign a greater importance to one life over another. Existence itself is too incredible to contemplate, so we end up taking it for granted and sometimes belittling it. Whether one person ends up a pro athelete or a grabage man or a bank teller or a chemist or a junkie lying huddled in the street each of their lives has more meaning and more importance than any of us will ever know.

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Backpacker Joe
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PostMon Feb 03, 2003 11:04 pm 
Very good P-bear. Deep, but very good. Did you ever end up going to South Cascade lake this summer P-bear? If not, with this LOW snow pack lets hit it early this summer! TB

"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide." — Abraham Lincoln
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polarbear
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PostMon Feb 03, 2003 11:11 pm 
SCL is still on my nemesis list, but this summer with the low snowfall and all does sound like a good possibility. If I go I'll let you know.

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Mike Collins
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PostTue Feb 04, 2003 10:13 am 
Next to hiking history is a second passion. An eminent historian named Barbara Tuchman wrote a book which I believe was entitled "Pursuit of Folly" (I am not at home to review the exact title). She reviewed various examples through the ages where people and governments have made decisions which were counterintuitive to what one might have expected them to make (e.g. The Trojan Horse). What she brilliantly develops is the idea of people filtering information based upon what they would like the outcome to be. We have all seen the video of the insulation hitting the Columbia. It was decided by expert engineers that that would not be a problem. If it were you and I climbing and rocks fell on or near our rope we would assuredly inspect the rope before we would put any weight on it. Gravity is always lord paramount when one is above the ground and will always be predictably unforgiving of errors. The astronauts relied upon advice from below and continued with their research on roses, ants, and what not when it would have been more prudent to visually inspect the surface of the tiles. It really is a repeat of the tragedy 17 years ago in that at that time the same decision making process occured. i.e. Information filtered to what conforms to the success of the mission or task. It is not about tiles or insulation but how we process and seek information that is the solution to this and future endeavors.

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Realist
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PostTue Feb 04, 2003 10:31 am 
Gee, folks are sure touchy around here, not a good thing for a potential warrior. Barbara Tuchman also wrote The Guns of August about the origin of WWI which no country wanted but all were sucked into. I am afraid history is repeating itself once again.

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salish
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PostTue Feb 04, 2003 11:10 am 
My dad was a homicide detective, and although he and his partners could get a little callous towards homicide scenes and bodies in general, this was a defense mechanism designed to alleviate some of the stress related to investigating these horrible crimes. By the same token my father would stand over a dead person and make a silent promise to the departed that he would do everything in his power to find the killer, regardless of who he was or what his place in life was. In fact, he probably went a little further to find the killers of street people, and prostitutes, because they had no one else to do for them. I sometimes wonder if the callous attitutude and sick jokes that we sometimes hear after a tragedy like this aren't similar in nature; simply a person being callous in order to avoid the pain that we all feel. On the other hand, there really are some sociopaths that could care less about things like this and do enjoy making fun of it all. An instance of this callous attitude, which I would call extreme, happened last year when that young girl jumped from the Ship Canal Bridge, very close to where I work. Traffic was stacked up in both directions and there are documented cases of individuals yelling, "jump, "B", including a metro bus driver, which of course, she did. I can't imagine anyone doing that. It reminds me of the Kitty Genovese murder in NYC several decades ago. Anyway, I'm digressing as usual. I really liked your words, Polarbear; life really does have more meaning than we will ever know and it is so precious. Thanks, Cliff Whether one person ends up a pro athelete or a grabage man or a bank teller or a chemist or a junkie lying huddled in the street each of their lives has more meaning and more importance than any of us will ever know.[/quote]

My short-term memory is not as sharp as it used to be. Also, my short-term memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
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Bushwacker
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PostTue Feb 04, 2003 11:38 am 
At this point, I am not willing to look at this as a repeat of the tragedy that claimed the crew of Challenger. Information was purposely withheld prior to launch. While the Challenger was still on the ground, people knowingly sat on the possible consequences of launching in cold temperatures. Yes, we all saw the foam fall off the external tank and strike the orbiter.What were the options if a decision had been made to abort the mission? They could not abort at anytime during the launch because the foam was not seen immediately. No docking collar for rendezvous with space station. No inflight tile repair options. The only option I have heard that was somewhat feasible was on re-entry. The maneuver would put the orbiter in an unstable alignment with the atmosphere, putting more stress on the right wing and less on the damaged wing. The shuttle would not be saved, but could possibly allow the crew to bail out. Strictly theory...untested...untried. Possibly the best way to prevent a re-currence is to produce an external fuel tank that doesn't have parts fall off. Even more so is my respect and admiration towards individuals who cast away the possible negative consequences of space flight and are willing to strap themselves into what can become a "flying bomb". BW

"Wait by the river long enough and the bodies of your enemies will float by"...Sun Tsu
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Backpacker Joe
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PostTue Feb 04, 2003 12:12 pm 
The ended up being a very good thread. A lot of the trouble with this system people arent looking at is the AGE of these aircraft. These things are OLD! The technology is OLD! I used to live next door to a Boeing engineer who worked on the program. As usual, these craft were put together with many (not all) part suppied by the lowest bidder! This guy told me that a loss factor of one craft per 25 flights was originally determined to be acceptable. These tragities were forseen! TB

"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide." — Abraham Lincoln
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Rocket Scientist
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PostTue Feb 04, 2003 1:04 pm 
Yo fellow wannabe NASA rocket scientists & spelling challenged brethren. It's a bit premature to assume damaged tiles, lack of inspection, or aftermarket parts were responsible for this tragedy. Let's wait until the facts are known before second guessing it all.

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Feb 04, 2003 1:06 pm 
Bailing out during reentry, is a non issue IMO. The stresses and heating of this phase make protecting each individual while external to the spacecraft ,at these speeds, impossible for all intents and purposes. IMO this portion of any spaceflight will always be the be the one place where your ship must work properly, with no alternatives. Even if there is a way, which I suspect is not likely, it must not be so expensive it outweighs the risk.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Mike Collins
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PostTue Feb 04, 2003 1:30 pm 
Rocket Scientist...The facts may never be known because someone opted for the head in the sand approach to inspection prior to the catastrophe. Some of the most decisive events of our history have been achieved by that posture. Admiral Farragut won at the Battle of Mobile Bay with the call, "Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead." But many disasters fall on the other side of that stance. If a decision about damage was made by that fuzzy video image then it is my opinion it was insufficient information to rest assuredly upon. Nothing happens because it is what you would like to happen. Enough tragedies happen which are not foreseeable. I view this as a tragedy which could possibly have been prevented by closer inspection. If a space walk was not possible then one could more successfully present a case of ignorance. But if one does not schedule a spacewalk because there are dozens of science experiments to be run then they are falling into the trap mentioned above where information is ignored or not investigated because it runs counter to the initial goal.

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Dslayer
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PostTue Feb 04, 2003 3:06 pm 
This was the first space shuttle launch in a while I paid much atttention to-largely because of the Isreali astronaut and his comments about the earth looking so peaceful and beautiful-I thought that was particularly poignant given the situation of Israel and the Middle East as a whole. I hope we resist the media impulse to scapegoat somebody for the disaster-

"The Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights is my concealed weapon permit."-Ted Nugent
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Malachai Constant
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PostWed Feb 05, 2003 7:27 am 
There are almost certainly high speed videos from Vandenberg, the Pacific Test Range, Edwards AFB and China Lake NWC of the shuttles rentry over California.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Backpacker Joe
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PostWed Feb 05, 2003 10:26 am 
I would imagine that you are correct Mal Con. I was at Vandenberg in the eithies when they were building two launch pads for the shuttle. I've been at Edwards when the shuttle landed there. The whole program was/is very interesting! I was lucky to get exposed to it. We are now hearing of parts streemed from Cal east to texas. TB

"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide." — Abraham Lincoln
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Bushwacker
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PostWed Feb 05, 2003 11:40 am 
Well, we all knew this could happen. A report out today concerning the foam insulation. http://www.msnbc.com/news/868766.asp BW shakehead.gif

"Wait by the river long enough and the bodies of your enemies will float by"...Sun Tsu
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