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Gil
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PostSat Nov 26, 2022 7:37 am 
Super interesting piece. Right-wingers often complain about the government "locking" up land. But it's not public lands that are locked up. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/26/business/hunting-wyoming-elk-mountain-access.html

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PostSat Nov 26, 2022 7:50 am 
NYT has a paywall. not a new problem. it does provide an impetus for land swap deals.

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Gil
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PostSat Nov 26, 2022 9:15 am 
See if this link will open the article for you. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/26/business/hunting-wyoming-elk-mountain-access.html?smtyp=cur&smid=fb-nytimes

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treeswarper
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PostSat Nov 26, 2022 9:15 am 
Gebbers Farms gated a road in our county. It was taken to court, the county won. The first hearing, which was under Okanogan County jurisdiction ruled in favor of Gebbers. The second hearing, done at the state court level ruled that the road was under county ownership and overruled the first decision. The road is now open. A new landowner near Randle put No Trespassing signs so they kinda sorta faced the road so you'd think the road was closed. Meanwhile, slides closed the other way in. It took a while, and I do not know why, to get the signs taken down. This stuff is more common than you'd think. It's just that not every case makes the big news outlets.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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JVesquire
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PostSat Nov 26, 2022 9:19 am 
Agreed, best article I致e read on this issue for a while. Land ownership and access is so arcane but the public agencies are often very knowledgeable about public easements. I called the USFS and learned about a lake access easement near our cabin that no one has known about or used for a long time and that a property owner posted no trespassing signs for. Happens a lot and is really infuriating.

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PostSat Nov 26, 2022 9:34 am 
^ The "why" part of it's pretty easy to understand if you have a piece of real estate that gets regularly trashed by visitors. I used to run people off all the time up at the cabin. nope... second link didn't work either..... I believe we've seen a thread about this before... ??

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PostSat Nov 26, 2022 11:24 am 
The "checkerboard" causes yet more troubles.

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PostSat Nov 26, 2022 12:57 pm 
Gil - found the article on a different website. I think the term is "sticky wicket". Loved the quote from the attorney: "If you win, you lose. If you lose, you lose." True, except for one minor little detail: BLM and USFS administered lands are public lands. Notwithstanding that a good deal of this issue concerns private property owners with deep, deep pockets, eventually through attrition and grass-roots contributions such as those mentioned in the article, combined with members of the judiciary who are actually able to grasp the meaning and intent of federal laws, the guys like this big shot who wants to keep everybody off his mountain are going to find themselves not only the losers of theses lawsuits, but also social pariahs in the areas where their land holdings are after they've alienated the locals with their shenanigans. (e.g., "Don't bring trouble to my neighborhood.") I look forward to watching the show.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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NightOwl
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PostSat Nov 26, 2022 1:53 pm 
Imo people need to start ignoring "no trespassing" signs and go where they want. That's what I do, and it allows me to see some amazing places. Property ownership is an abstraction; it only means something if the "owners" are willing and able to enforce it. I've never had a problem, but I am pretty stealthy and I don't go into obviously well-defended areas. These lands were stolen and taken by force; they can be taken back by force, and by simply refusing to recognize the authority of signs. Nobody owns the planet. The world needs far more of this anarchist mentality at this point in history, imo.

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PostSat Nov 26, 2022 2:50 pm 
^ I don't disagree with you, but the unfortunate reality is that a lot of these people own guns, and they have no problem about driving out and brandishing their weapons and threatening people. Having been in that situation myself - with a next-door neighbor trying to restrict access through a legal easement, which required the invervention of a very pissed-off Thurston County Sheriff - I can assure you it's not a place you want to find yourself. (FTR: It's actually WAY more scary when you have a rookie cop put the barrel of his revolver up against your ear, but that's another story... ) Better to let this play out in the legal arena. It will be a protracted battle, as the private property owners are in many cases well-moneyed and they'd like nothing more than to succeed in "making their point". Ultimately, though, I do not see this ending up in their favor; no matter how you slice or dice it, they are public lands - there is no legal argument against that.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostSat Nov 26, 2022 2:57 pm 
^ I don't disagree with you, but the unfortunate reality is that a lot of these people own guns, and they have no problem about driving out and brandishing their weapons and threatening people. Having been in that situation myself - with a next-door neighbor trying to restrict access through a legal easement, which required the invervention of a very pissed-off Thurston County Sheriff - I can assure you it's not a place you want to find yourself. (FTR: It's actually WAY more scary when you have a rookie cop put the barrel of his revolver up against your ear, but that's another story... ) Better to let this play out in the legal arena. It will be a protracted battle, as the private property owners are in many cases well-moneyed and they'd like nothing more than "making their point". Ultimately, though, I do not see this ending up in their favor; no matter how you slice or dice it, they are public lands - there is no legal argument against that. == To reiterate something I mentioned above: I can understand perfectly well why this happens. People trash places. I got tired of picking up the styrofoam bait cups, empty beer cans, and cigarette butts left behind by fishermen, so when I saw them traipsing up the river in front of our property, I went out and tossed boulders into the river on top of their lines. They got the hint: "Don't fish up there where that crazy sonofabitch has the cabin." There's a piece of DNR-owned land up at the top end of that island (although it's not much of an island any more) and you could - legally - camp out there over the weekend provided you didn't build a fire - but you'd have to float down from the Peissner Road bridge to get to it. I could legally walk to it - I'm still one of the "heirs and assigns" in a pass-through covenant from 1958 - but I'd rather not deal with those crazy bastards up there any more - most of them are "Ramsters". (Ramtha followers.)

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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treeswarper
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PostSat Nov 26, 2022 4:07 pm 
We posted our land because our house was shot by bird hunters. Was inside heard a blast and something hit the house. The shot penetrated the siding--just missed hitting the window by a few inches. Another time, I was out feeding the cows and more birdshot started falling in the area. We were fine with folks hunting before, but then idiots made it dangerous. Plus, now one has to worry about lawsuits if idiots are injured, fires being started, game poaching, fences cut resulting in livestock getting out--a bit more than just garbage. City people don't even begin to understand the havoc they can wreak. However, that's land, not public roads. Funny, nobody has mentioned the pot farms in CA. Foresters could not go visit tree growth plots used for study in one entire county, because the pot farmers were armed and dangerous and there, farming on land that was public.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Randito
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PostSat Nov 26, 2022 4:59 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
Funny, nobody has mentioned the pot farms in CA. Foresters could not go visit tree growth plots used for study in one entire county, because the pot farmers were armed and dangerous and there, farming on land that was public.
I think you are referring to how it was in CA, but also OR and WA prior to legalization. When criminal organizations would have grow operations on out of the way locations. With legalization, legal growers aren't using such marginal, unproductive and inaccessible land for their grow operations.

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PostSat Nov 26, 2022 8:33 pm 
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treeswarper
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PostSat Nov 26, 2022 9:16 pm 
Randito wrote:
treeswarper wrote:
Funny, nobody has mentioned the pot farms in CA. Foresters could not go visit tree growth plots used for study in one entire county, because the pot farmers were armed and dangerous and there, farming on land that was public.
I think you are referring to how it was in CA, but also OR and WA prior to legalization. When criminal organizations would have grow operations on out of the way locations. With legalization, legal growers aren't using such marginal, unproductive and inaccessible land for their grow operations.
I have never heard of an entire county in WA where folks were told not to go find forest plots because of illegal pot growing. Which county was that? In CA, yes it was when it was illegal. But I have read where there are still large, illegal operations going because they want to avoid regulations and licensing fees. It's still a problem there.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human末animals and aliens are great possibilities
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