[JayMar]

HAS ANYONE EVER GOTTEN A TICKET THAT IS ACTUALLY TIED TO A COMPUTER SYSTEM THAT CAN FIND YOU? I have been given many 'piss yellow' notices and have not paid. Until I get an actual ticket from one of the 'men in green' I won't *pay* much attention [knock on wood]. There must be a wide array of tickets I am not aware of in dem dar hills. As for the Forest Service having the burdon on proving thier case that a person was ticketed because they did not pay - come on! This is the same arguement used in traffic court and I have yet to have a Judge crucify a cop to prove a speeding ticket case.

[polarbear]

The ticket I received was a genuine ticket and probably tied to a computer system. I parked behind a sign that stated fee required beyond this point. When I returned from the hike, the sign was gone and a ticket was on my windshield (the sign could have been removed by irate hikers, though). I get worried about funds being spent on fancy loos.

[Newt]

Just print your own It's cheaper NN

[JayMar]

Mr. Newt- How do you print your own? I had no idea they had actual tickets....

[Dante]

[Dslayer in repose]

I've decided never to pay the damn thing, never to pay fines and if I go to jail for parking in a parking lot in which my vehicle is usually the only one, then fine, screw it. I've gone back and forth with this for several years now, paying the fee a couple of years but I've been stepping over the same deadfalls for 6-7 years or having to cross a creek where a bridge has been out for about the same time and I can see BS when it's plainly BS. If the NFS ever replaces the bridge over the N. Fork of Clear CK above Dog Lake on the Cramer Lake trail, I might buy a pass someday again--what torques me about this bridge, it's no big deal for a person who's fairly agile to cross one of the logs upstream, is that this is an easy trail to access the Tumac Plateau and the lakes. One year this older fella-had to be 70 plus would walk in every day from where he was camped at the trail head. I would pass him, but he'd make it up there and catch a few fish at Dumbell or Otter Lake or Cramer. He couldn't make it up there now and it's impossible for little kids, too. I thought that what the NW Forest Pass was paying for-the damn bridge has been out since 1997-I've been patient long enough.

[Backpacker Joe]

Pay the ticket. I'd rather pay a few tickets than buy their bloody PERMIT! NOBODY permits me to do anything when the land is owned by all of us! That and we've already established thet TAXES already cover this stuff. Some freedoms have a higher price than others! TB

[cave coyote]

I use the tickets after I relieve myself in the wilderness. I have well over 10 tickets and no one has contacted me yet I will be glad to go in front of a judge. I belive they don't want to take it to that level because they would lose the case.

[Newt]

It's a bit of work but can be fun to create your own kinds of paperwork. It may take some trial and error work. I prefer the first example as the reproduced image is much better. This can be used to make id badges for young kids with a photo on one side and information (home address, tele #, favorite things etc.) on the back if using a color printer. You can also do with a quality color copier. 1 to 2 sided. First you will need an original of what you want to duplicate. Get the newest you can. Go to an art store and find some paper as close to the same weight and color as what you are duplicating. If doing a black on colored paper do this. 1. You will need to copy both sides. When you copy the first side make sure it is in the upper left corner of the print copy. 2, Copy the other side and make sure it is in the upper right corner of the print copy. 3. Put both copies in a copy machine that will copy 1 sided to 2 sided. 4. Look at this copy to see if both front and back sides match with each other. If not then adjust accordingly. If they do, repeat #3 using the paper you bought. 5. Punch and cut holes, slots and anything else that is necessary. 6. Take a sewing thingie that has the sharp spiked rolling wheel on it to add the necessary perforations. You can also: 1. Scan both sides. 2. Open MS Word, create a new 2 page doc and set your page properties to 8.5 x 11. Make sure your left and right margins are set the same and check for printable area on your printer for being the same. 3. Insert one of the images in the upper left corner of the first page. 4. Insert the other image in the upper right corner of the second page. 5. Print to a printer that will print both sides. 6. Check for alignment as in # 4 above. If not then adjust accordingly. If ok, 7. Print on colored stock. 8. Follow #5 above. 9. Follow #6 above. If you have a graphics program such as PSP or PS, you can rubberstamp out any imperfections (tears,soil marks or such). Save and then insert into doc. Disclaimer, I'm not resposible for what these instructions can and will be used for. Depending on what is copied and how it is used may be in violation of city, county, state and federal laws. Use at your own risk. These instructions are not intended for illegal purposes.

[Dante]

My sister suggested something similar. That's where I got the idea for including counterfeiting as an example for the "other choice". I guess she read something about people counterfeiting season passes for some of the ski areas around here. Those are worth enough to make counterfeiting worthwhile. I am not recommending or condoing this.

[JayMar]

Thanks for the info Newt and Dante. I am still on the fence as I have yet to get a real ticket. For now I will mooch off all my pass wielding buddies

[Dale]

I wanted to inform you all that not all "seniors get a free ride." I am 68 years old and as a matter of principle neither my wife(who is considerably older than I am) nor I take advantage of *any* geezer discounts. Not even at the movie or the zoo. Every year I buy the $50 National Park Pass, the $30 Northwest Forest Pass, a State Fishing and Hunting License(I do not hunt or fish but I do occasionally use the ramps to launch my kayak and canoes), the $40 Snow Park Permit. I will never ever apply for the Green Government Checks from the Political Insecurity RipOff or any of the other Welfare State "entitlements" such as Medicare... I am an ardent admirer of Ayn Rand and agree with most of the ideas she expressed in her books including "The Virtue of Selfishness." "In the animal kingdom, the rule is: eat or be eaten; in the human kingdom: define or be defined." Thomas Szasz, libertarian psychiatrist

[Allison]

So let's say they abolish the Fee Demo Plan. Right now 90% of the % for TM and other services is coming from that revenue stream. Without the 90%, that leaves 10%. Almost nothing, relatively speaking. If they don't replace the revenue stream, you would be totally okay with no more trail, trailhead, or parking lot maintenance? Would that be okay? I hate the Fee Demo BS as much as the next person, but the arguments I see here range to the irrational.

[marzsit]

an old friend of mine used to conterfeit proof-of-insurance cards because he couldn't afford auto insurance when washington state made it manditory. i won't describe how he did it but he used a computer and inkjet printer, and a plotter. they were good enough to fool several judges and police officers in many western states.... he even figured out how to print a passable "watermark" image. he is also a very good cnc machinist, and his knowledge of cad programming really helped. he moved to eastern oregon in 1999 and haven't seen him since. harper was the name of the town i think...

[marzsit]

i guess i haven't answered this yet: i bite the bullet and pay for the pass. hopefully, the money will go where it's needed and not buy a donut for president bush.....