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MCaver
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 10:05 am 
PB, I got lucky with my bus commute from the eastside. I drove about 10 min from where I live near Totem Lake to the South Kirkland P&R, where I caught #255. It's the last bus stop before the trip over the lake, and by driving that far I avoided the "milk run" of stopping every 2 blocks in Kirkland. Once the bus crossed the lake, it made one stop on Stewart before hitting the tunnel downtown. Counting my enter/exit points, there were 5 stops total. Not bad for such a long ride. what cost so much time was all the traffic on the 520 bridge. In off hours the ride could be made in 20 min. In traffic it took at least 45. I much prefer driving my 6 miles in 15 min now.

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Allison
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 10:41 am 
Lordy, Damian, can't you figure out anything on your own? Use the formula: # of bowling balls + # of bottles of wine + # of batches of your wife's stew DIVIDED by the CI of your technical pack = the number of technical rocks you can put in it. This of couse is contingent on the rocks all being the same size and weight, borrow Tom's fancy digi scale if you run into problems. Jeez!

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 11:04 am 
Scrooge, the bottom line is with any mid size SUV - Jeep, Explorer, Pathfinder, 4Runner, you're looking at 18-23 mpg tops. And thats charitable IMO. My 4runner gets 17-19 on the highway no matter where I go, even on long flat trips, about 14-16 around town, and a bit less if grinding around on dirt. They are fantastic for space and getting anywhere you need to go, but be prepared to pay for gas. As for space, when I chose mine I measured the internal volume of all the vehicles I was looking at (you can bet the salespeople loved my crawling around their rigs with a tape measure and notepad) which were Pathfinder, 4runner, Mitsubishi, Explorer and X Terra and the 91 4 runner had the largest internal volume of all of them, the longest rear area with the seat folded down. A pickup in the same size range with 4wd will be about the same. A 2wd pickup will probably do 4-6 mpg better. Even the smaller SUV's like cavers still are hard pressed to do much better in real world driving, though you see numbers as high as 28 ratings for RAV 4's I don't think you get that in real driving except maybe under the best of conditions. The Subaru foresters and earlier wagons do quite well, I think 24-28 for the wagons but I'm not sure about the Foresters since I don't know anybody with one. If you don't need all the room you get with a bigger rig, IMO Sub's are probably your best bet. For any of them, remember you'll get better mileage by choosing a manual transmission. As for American vs Japanese, I'd stick with the Japanese versions from Toy, Nissan, or Sub. IMO the fit and finish, basic design, and long term reliability of these vehicles is unmatched. They are well known for their performance and durability for a reason, and you'll note the resale value of used ones reflects this. Take a look in the papers at 5-10 year old 4x4's of these brands and compare their prices to the equivalent domestic vehicles and you'll see what I mean. Until 93 I worked for a Ford/Nissan dealer and while the Fords had gotten a lot better than when I began in '98, the Nissans arrived from the factory as if angels built them. The worst flaw I ever found in a new Nissan was noisy front brake pads. Fords arrrived sometimes missing heater hoses, occasionally wouldn't run, and one V8 in a Crown Vic was missing a piston. Ran a bit rough!

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Timber Cruiser
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 11:22 am 
I've never gone 4-wheeling just for fun. But I have done it for work for the past 25 years (although some days did turn out to be more recreation than production). The best rig I've ever had is the original Ford Bronco (1966-1977). It took me every place I needed to go and a few I didn't. Put a winch on it and carry a handyman jack and I can almost gaurantee that it will never leave you in a walk-out situation. Manual hubs are still the best defense against getting stuck. Forces you to get out of the rig and take a look at how deep that mud puddle really is! Not the most luxurious vehicles (back seat doesn't get much heat and the back window will leak dust) but very durable and flexible. If you want to look at some of these rigs in action, go to classicbroncos.com.

"Logging encourages the maintenance of foilage by providing economic alternatives to development."
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-lol-
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 3:12 pm 

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 3:26 pm 
Yup, those prices are what I saw when picking out my rig a couple years ago. We got quite a deal on ours due to some underhanded moves by the dealer we unfortunately chose, because Boeing Credit union went to bat for us and kicked their skanky butts. Not only did they have to eat the $3k they tried to add to our deal, they lost all their markup and had to sell us the rig at cost, and were taken off BECU's membership list for BECU sponsored car sales. I wanted a Pathfinder being a lifelong Nissan fan, but it simply didn't have the room I wanted. It's my first Toyota and I've been very impressed with the engineering and performance. 130k miles and no oil burning, no rattles, and passes emissions with flying colors. I wouldn't hesitate to buy another, these rigs are worth the cost. I put off an SUV for a good 15 years while the used rigs dropped in price until I could justify one, also I wanted a used one so I wouldn't be squeamish about beating on it, and I haven't been!

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Tom
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 4:37 pm 
Mtn Goat, what's the scoop on the BECU sponsored car sales? I've gotten flyers in the mail but never thought twice about them. I actually enjoy the negotiation process and often find I can get a better deal than the "no haggle" prices (which in some cases, i.e. MSN Car Point, are a laughable if not disturbing). How was it that you got a special deal after the fact?

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MtnGoat
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 5:06 pm 
BECU sponsors car sales where all approved dealers show up with cars with prices preapproved by BECU so that financing is also very close to preapproved. The dealers must submit the pricing for each vehicle in advance. When we found the rig I wound up buying, and decided to take it, $12.4K or so was on our application and we opted to allow them to search for alternate financing on the chance we could get a better deal other than BECU, which turned out to be very stupid. Number one, BECU's financing couldn't be beaten for terms. Number two, by agreeing to allow them to look for alternate financing we had unwittingly agreed to take it if BECU didn't approve the car, and also included in this deal in the fine print was a higher sale price on the vehicle. So we got a call from the dealership the next week saying BECU wouldn't accept the deal so we owed them an additional $3200 (included higher sales tax on the now higher price, $13.8K and some other crap) due to the alternate financing clause. We went pretty ballistic, now I know why people hate dealers, this is the first car I've ever bought from one or financed. The fault was partly ours for stupidly signing that alternate financing deal (which we later found wasn't permitted at BECU sales for precisely this reason). But when you're sitting signing endless stacks of paper, you make mistakes. I plead guilty to sheer gullibility on this one. So my wife called BECU and they looked into it. They found that the car had never been submitted for BECU approved price at the sale, that's why they had rejected the application, and that's why the alternate financing clause kicked in. The BECU honcho who's in charge of organizing these big sales, personally showed up at the dealership two days later with our paperwork in hand and demanded a meeting covering *all* cars the dealership had brought to the event. It turns out we hadn't been the only ones who had been scammed. They were forced to sell us the rig at the price they'd paid for it at a used car wholesale auction, a really sweet deal of $10k! For a fully loaded clean 91 4 runner with power windows, big sunroof, racks, running boards, CD, air, cruise, etc which I found blue booked at the time for about 13.5k. They were booted from BECU's preferred dealer list, banned from submitting cars to future sales, and had all BECU related deals examined as I mentioned. So we got the car at their cost, and got to sit across from the guy who'd tried to screw us in the first place, as he signed the deal for us to get the car at what they paid for it. No profit. It was pretty darned sweet, so rarely does one get complete closure, a measure of revenge, and to do so face to face with the enemy who's being squashed by forces he cannot resist. We had our sweetest "canary fed cat" smiles on the whole time. We were on cloud 9. We also got a chit for a fill up at their local station and made sure to go there on empty and filled it with super. BECU rocks. They kicked butt for us.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Damian
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 5:46 pm 
Chris you're a scammin' dog. 10K for a clean 91 Runner is something you should be ashamed of. I feel sorry for that poor dealer and expect you to buy the beer the next time I see you. All said is true about the Toyo. I'm on my second Tacoma after mistakingly selling my first thinking a Sub would suffice. The Sub suffices just fine on pavement, rain, and snow or light dirt road activity. I love the car. Best car I've ever owned. But it doesn't hold a candle to a real 4X4 on rough stuff and I'm surprised Subs even continue to be mentioned in these discussions. As for used Toyo prices, they are scary. The saving grace is that besides tabs and gas, the initial cash is likely the only money you will spend on it for a long time.

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Tom
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 5:47 pm 
Anyone have experience with the Toyota Tacoma Double Cabs? I was thinking you could throw on a canopy (like in this picture) and sleep in back. Just wondering if the short 5' bed gets you enough room though? I guess you could sleep diagonally to get an extra foot or so.

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Newt
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 6:58 pm 
Forester? I got one. 2k1 S. 28-32 mpg w/manual. Loaded it up with all the campin'/hikin' gear etc for 2 people for a 3 week cruise to AK and the darn thing was only half full and we way over packed. I've had it on some roads that I thought were 4x4. Thought I would have to back out for 3 mi with a cliff on one side. Wuz able to turn around in a wide spot. Did very well. I like the lcg as less of a chance for rollover. As far as buying, I don't haggle. If what you're asking is what I want to pay then we have a deal. When I bought the Forester the sales guy asked what I wanted to spend. I told him it had nothing to do with what I want to spend but more to do with his selling price. I told him we wouldn't do much $ talking and I wanted rock bottom right up front. Iffin it was in my area I would be interested or walk. It was a decent price. 2 weeks of talking off and on and I told him I had *his* first offer and would only take one more. He came down 2k. So when I went to buy the car I called and asked the cash price so I could have a check for him. Got another 6% knocked off. It's not so much what I wanna pay, It's what they're asking for it. Otherwise they make the price in your range regardless. I guess it's an ok rig. NN smile.gif

It's pretty safe to say that if we take all of man kinds accumulated knowledge, we still don't know everything. So, I hope you understand why I don't believe you know everything. But then again, maybe you do.
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Newt
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Newt
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PostTue Mar 12, 2002 7:07 pm 
Not only that but he let me do the math on the 6%. Went to the bank and had check drawn. Forgot to add tax, license etc. Refused to write a personal for the difference. Was my best deal of my life. No coupons, ebate or the like. NN smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif smile.gif

It's pretty safe to say that if we take all of man kinds accumulated knowledge, we still don't know everything. So, I hope you understand why I don't believe you know everything. But then again, maybe you do.
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Tom
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 2:36 pm 
Sounds like most of you have had good experiences with Jeeps. I was a little surprised as hadn't generally heard good things about their long term reliability. I have to admit their latest offering looks very very tempting (if not for the gas mileage). http://www.jeep.com/liberty/index.html

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MtnGoat
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 2:55 pm 
buyin trouble......... my brother swears by his jeep too, but he thinks it's normal to be having little things fixed constantly. I don't want to ruffle any feathers, just go look at sites which rate reliability and decide for yourself!

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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MtnGoat
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PostWed Mar 13, 2002 3:16 pm 
Took my own advice and went and looked up a few Toys and Jeeps, it sure looks like Jeeps have significantly improved in quality. Maybe it's just my Japanese car bias talking here!

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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