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paps
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PostFri Aug 08, 2003 8:12 am 
Brian, I wasn't trying to straighten you out. I just think that we all come at this from different angles or beginnings and maybe you were over-simplifying it bit. Nice retort by you and El Puma. I think if someone really has the desire to go off trail, they will push themselves and acquire the knowledge, experience and skill to get there - eventually. For me, getting comfortable off trail (more often higher than lower) was a natural extension of trail hiking. Just checking out what was beyond the next ridge. Short distances first, then farther and farther.

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salish
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PostFri Aug 08, 2003 8:33 am 
Mike E. wrote:
Craig wrote:
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What is there to be affraid of? You learn from your experiences
Are you kidding ? How about dying ? You don't learn much that way do you ? There are a lot of people who've been walking around "off trail" for a long time, a lot of those on this forum I'd imagine. But having survived that doesn't make the risks any less. A short fall or even a twisted ankle in the wrong place could be potentially fatal. If you're going to do this, then you NEED to think about how you're going to cover any potential problems because they can happen. I've been going off trail alone for over thirty years and I'm still afraid of it. It's like my table saw. My fear makes me very careful, (yes, I still have all my fingers).
This is pretty timely, because I took a nasty fall on a solo trip on Thursday of last week, near Mt. Sawyer. I was on a very steep ridge with no trail whatsoever, with brush so thick you couldn't see the ground beneath you, and a huge boulder field. I was making my way up to the top of the ridge by handholds of brush and exposed roots, and I missed one root and went for a 30ft-40ft ride down a rocky chute. My boots finally lodged against a sapling and stopped me, but the jolt wrenched my back badly, and I was in a world of hurt. To make a long story short, I retreated back down that ridge, then another ridge, to where my car was parked, by scooting on my butt and half crawling/falling/walking. I was a mess. The ibuprofen I had got me home to where I have some great drugs for my back. It was a bit unnerving because at one point I started wondering if I could make it off the ridge, and began thinking about SAR help. I learned a few lessons, the major one being that I will make every effort to not hike solo in off trail situations. Secondly, I will make darned sure I plan and plot out every move and not be impatient with route planning . I love going off trail but there are risks involved. I like the analogy of a table saw, because the danger is always there. Cliff

My short-term memory is not as sharp as it used to be. Also, my short-term memory's not as sharp as it used to be.
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hikerjo
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PostFri Aug 08, 2003 8:42 am 
The only way to ever get good at anything is practice. Read books, ask people on nwhikers.net, or anything else is a good way to prepare yourself, but you will never gain experience unless you actually go out and do it. My advice, to improve navigating skills is to go out in the desert where you can see a long ways and cant get lost. Then use your map and compass, and try to find your way to certin points, benchmarks are always good.

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Randy
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PostFri Aug 08, 2003 10:34 am 
[quote="paps"]No Randy, Brian said
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learned from my dad
Obviously. My post was in direct reference to the second part of Brian's post which was clear. Thanks for trying to point something out though... redface.gif

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PostFri Aug 08, 2003 11:08 am 
Quote:
Thanks for trying to point something out though...
your welcome. (I think)

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Karen
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PostFri Aug 08, 2003 2:56 pm 
My two cents
My two cents: I hike alone alot. I sometimes go off-trail. I sometimes do so without a map because I decide on a whim that I want to "explore". How have I managed to stay alive?? I look at the lay of the land. I seem to have an uncanny ability to "remember" unusually shaped trees or stones or natural artistic arrangements. I've never been hurt while doing any of these things and don't consider myself a risk taker. However, I have had two bad falls on user-friendly trails. Just this week I took a "header" on the Lodge Lake trail which is a wuss-walk at best. How did this happen? I was gawking at the flowers and not looking at where I was putting my feet. Most accidents happen from stupidity like that. The other bad fall was on a hiking trail in the Columbia Gorge -- I took another header and landed on BOTH of my knees in the rocks. It hurt so bad I couldn't even whimper. I just sat there stunned. But I got up and hiked out with my friends. I had sore knees for about two weeks but no problems since. Again, at times I believe I am lucky. You may wonder why I don't tell anyone where I am going? Two reasons: there is no one to tell and the other reason is that I often change my mind on the way to a trailhead. I do carry a cell phone and emergency gear in the car. Karen

stay together, learn the flowers, go light - from Turtle Island, Gary Snyder
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McPilchuck
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PostFri Aug 08, 2003 8:06 pm 
Not accepting money at this time <grin>. http://www.alpinequest.com/alpineframe.htm McPil

in the granite high-wild alpine land . . . www.alpinequest.com
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hikermike
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PostSat Aug 09, 2003 2:23 am 
secreplaces
As to falls, it is my recollection that the highest mortality in climbing is not class 5 but class 3 and most of the accidents are on the easier places on the way down. As to secret places, I'm of mixed feelings on this as I prefer solitude, (I've actually met a number of people who DON'T want to be in a place alone!) and when I first started depended on others for suggestions. Now I find my own. There are those like Manning and Spring, who think they all should be revealed in order to bring more exposure for protection and others who feel have the wilderness should be closed off. (So only they can use it I presume). Anyway, I was very saddenend to see one place my kids and I had found has found it's way into a manual. (LOOP HIKES, Cow Creek MDWS.)

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polarbear
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PostFri Aug 29, 2003 8:04 pm 
Maybe this is an appropriate place to continue the secrecy topic. It seems like there are two arguments. One, it doesn't impact things alot. Two, it does. How about a more scientific analysis? We all know that if there's a secret to be kept, it often gets babbled out, maybe not on the internet but elsewhere. The big company layoff [sorry for the bad example, just the times we live in] which is supposed to be a secret everyone knows about the next day, including who is getting the ax. Does keeping a lake secret only protect it for maybe another 10-15 years? Who can be told that can be trusted? Should photos ever be taken (afterall, no one takes a picture just to show to themselves, so if you're taking one of your favorite secret lake, aren't you taking the first step towards revealing the last best place)? Discuss.

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#19
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PostFri Aug 29, 2003 8:17 pm 
polarbear, so you're saying it is just a matter of when, just a matter of time, not one one of if. Interesting and valid in the big picture of things.

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polarbear
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PostFri Aug 29, 2003 8:53 pm 
I think for many places that will be the case, however, that doesn't mean that spilling the beans now is the best thing. A case might be made that 20 years from now, we will be even more conscious of the leave not trace ethic and it would be better for people to discover secret places then. Here are a few variables: chicken.gif user groups fishermen probably keep secrets better than most others, so sharing within the fishermen's group is safer chicken.gif revegitation period Places like Cascade Pass that used to have motorcycle access now appear fairly pristine; even the deep ruts of the conestogas on the Oregon Trail will eventually dissappear. Maybe a case can be made that even if a place gets discovered, it can recover to a large degree given proper management (of course this means permits, which no one likes) chicken.gif method of dipersing the secret word of mouth, newspaper, the internet, Barnes and Noble--of these, I think a book is most likely to cause a stampede to a secret place since most internet sites aren't organized well enough (though that Hiker Bob site seems to be pretty good) chicken.gif social dynamics jogging was the craze of the 70's, hiking could be the present flash in the pan, it's popularity could wane as people rediscover the joys of couch potatoing, virtual reality. Why did so many people jog in the 70's? Anyone have a clue? How about some other factors that might affect things? Oddly, I think the user group that would be most likely to frequent a formerly secret spot would be fishermen, and they already know most of the secret spots, but they are a smaller group too. doh.gif

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MtnGoat
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PostFri Aug 29, 2003 9:25 pm 
Quote:
So if someone posts a TR or a photo or EVEN MENTIONS Green Mt LO and it inspires someone else to go there, camp for three days on a meadow bench hadn't been camped on before, causing the heather to die, new side trails started and others to camp there in the future - that is OK? Because the general area isn't pristine.
That's an interesting question. Since Green Mtn is well known and in many guidebooks, you have a situation where you may have spurred a visit but it's difficult to tell. I can't say if it's OK or not OK, because the variables of new impacts on a place already well traveled are pretty subjective, just like the impacts on a place little known being OK. But for the little known places, it's more likely you have an impact simply because they are little known and info concentrates use. Sure, it may be an XC destination, but on the ground, new poop sites and trampling happens wether it's dedicated cross country folks or anyone else. It's another set of feet. Obviously I've done my share of roaming, and I can't say I wouldn't go somewhere. All my point is that recognizing our possible impacts stretch beyond our personal visitation, especially when popularizing a little known place, is something that we should each consider. Many little known places recover well with occasional visitation on an essentially random basis by people hiking purely from a map for curiosity's sake, but double or triple the usage (which doesn't take much if a place is out of the way) and the damage starts to accrue. Fisherpeople know this well from a fishing perspective. Places can be great spots when the visitation is on a random basis from folks picking a lake from a map and going there, but provide a reason for concentrating visits, such as a report of really spectacular conditions, and it can change dramatically.

Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Tom
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PostFri Aug 29, 2003 9:48 pm 
On my way back from one of the places I decided not to write up, which BTW was a fairly strenuous off trail route that would protect it from the mobs rolleyes.gif, I ran into a lot more people coming out than I ever expected. The last two I encountered, an older man and his son, told of a horror story of 20 people camped at the lake that weekend who had trashed the place, leaving garbage, dirty underwear, etc. - a stark contrast to years before when they had seen no one. The latter two had cleaned it up as best they could and I thanked them for their courtesy. After talking a bit more I did my usual thing and told them about nwhikers.net. The older man looked at me strange, almost as if his heart were breaking and asked, "you're not going to write this place up are you?" Enough said.

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#19
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PostFri Aug 29, 2003 9:56 pm 
[quote="Pappy"]
Quote:
So if someone posts a TR or a photo or EVEN MENTIONS Green Mt LO and it inspires someone else to go there, camp for three days on a meadow bench hadn't been camped on before, causing the heather to die, new side trails started and others to camp there in the future - that is OK? Because the general area isn't pristine.
Quote:
That's an interesting question. Since Green Mtn is well known and in many guidebooks, you have a situation where you may have spurred a visit but it's difficult to tell. I can't say if it's OK or not OK, because the variables of new impacts on a place already well traveled are pretty subjective, just like the impacts on a place little known being OK.
MtnGoat, Where in the hell do you get off changing MY senario to fit YOUR arguement? What do you mean "I can't say"??? I already did!! Read above. The despoilers didn't learn of the locale from a guidebook. Try again, or rather, sharpen your sword.

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Newt
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PostSat Aug 30, 2003 10:44 am 
I think they should be left secret. Even being the first one to a place has an impact. It will recover in less time than when the mass's show up. It's not really so much the matter of it's *My Place* as it is protecting it from becoming an asphalt trail with designated camping areas at the end. In time, people will find it and go there. Knowing how people can be, I think there is even a percentage of the hard core packers that don't really respect the areas that they visit per Tom's example. those people cause damage, real damage. With todays population coupled with the interest of the outdoors and hiking/backpacking, it becomes a risk. Once the place is mentioned, especially the internet, it will attract attention. Far more than if it's just talked about among close and trusted friends that share the same values as you. Broadcasting, advertising and talking about such places puts these area at risk. You then need to ask yourself if you are doing your *Stewardship of the Land* job properly. It's all ours but it's all ours to protect and preserve in the manner in which we see fit according to our own beliefs. A real judgement call. Use your feelings of the experience to determine if you want to see more people there the next time you go. It's not just *Leave No Trace*, it's also *Leave No Impact*. Your presence may not leave one, but your report may start one. I for one would like to know of such places. Not so much to go to, but the excitement that I get in sharing *Your* excitement of your experience. Heck, most of the out of the way places are way out of my league anyway. I can live with TR of secret places without the road #'s, lake & mountain names. Just my opinion. NN

It's pretty safe to say that if we take all of man kinds accumulated knowledge, we still don't know everything. So, I hope you understand why I don't believe you know everything. But then again, maybe you do.
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