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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Cyclopath
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 Mon May 02, 2022 10:03 am |
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I've seen a lot of posts here about the hopelessness of getting a good permit from recreation.gov because of people using bots. As someone who's interested in tech and how the internet is evolving and affecting life, this is fascinating and I want to know more. (It's also interesting and relevant as a hiker.)
Can anybody point me to more details about this please? Thanks!
I'm really curious how people ruled out that there are just a lot of hikers that want permits.
I'm also interested in the game of cat and mouse between the site and the bots. Do they have to hide their IP addresses, if so are they geofenced? Stuff like that. Makes great stories.
Thanks in advance for whatever detail you can point me to! 
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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman
Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman
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Mon May 02, 2022 10:17 am |
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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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Mon May 02, 2022 10:25 am |
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It looks like those find available sites more easily, but don't acquire permits?
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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman
Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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Location: Newcastle |
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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman
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Mon May 02, 2022 10:33 am |
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Sure, I probably wouldn't public that either. Could be done with something like Selenium or some other macro tool though.
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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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Mon May 02, 2022 10:45 am |
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There's a big difference between "could be" and "is" - do we actually know which one?
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Randito
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Joined: 27 Jul 2008
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Location: Bellevue at the moment. |
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Randito
Snarky Member
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Mon May 02, 2022 10:53 am |
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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman
Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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Location: Newcastle |
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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman
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Mon May 02, 2022 10:59 am |
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| catsp wrote: | | Core Zone available rn for May 15 |
☃️
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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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Mon May 02, 2022 11:03 am |
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This keeps saying "likely," "probably," and "could be."
It shows that "I'm being out competed by bots" is a widespread idea, but it doesn't show that it's happening. Meaning people using automated non browser software to actually acquire permits on their behalf without those people needing to be involved the way everybody else is.
We know from the number of cars overflowing parking lots that more people are hiking than ever before. More hikers means more competition for permits. A lot of people seem certain this isn't what's going on. (And then a lot of people say it is what's going on but instagram and maps are to blame.)
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coldrain108
Thundering Herd
Joined: 05 Aug 2010
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I found this, but I couldn't find anything more aggressive.
vacancy bot
Since I have no expectations of forgiveness, I don't do it in the first place. That loop hole needs to be closed to everyone.
Since I have no expectations of forgiveness, I don't do it in the first place. That loop hole needs to be closed to everyone.
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jaysway
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jaysway
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Mon May 02, 2022 1:24 pm |
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I did the same search a couple of months ago or whenever the last discussion around bots happened in one of these threads and found these. I spend an hour searching and playing around with a couple, it seems like most of them are more focused on frontcountry camping than backcountry camping. I couldn't find any that worked out-of-the-box for NCNP/MRNP/ONP wilderness permits - it wouldn't take too much work to do this, and since my goal was just to investigate these and not use them myself I didn't pursue this any further.
So the question isn't "can people use bots on recreation.gov" because people clearly do. A better question is "how often are people acquiring permits using bots on recreation.gov." Booz Allen might have more information here, but since bots/people running bots are still paying the $6 service fee I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't really care unless they got pushback from the USFS or NPS.
Even if bots weren't a thing, the sheer number of people interested in competitive permits means that the minute that permits become available the best ones will very quickly get taken. That said, I don't like a system that allows some people to gain an advantage.
A more equitable system would be to shift to more lotteries and less free-for-all permit grabs and perhaps even have it so that when someone cancels their permit, a mini-lottery pops up for that permit, ex. for the next 6 hours, anybody can throw their hat in the ring and one lucky person gets the permit at the end. The advantage of the current system is that people who are more hardcore/have the privilege of more free time to dedicate (that includes many of us) towards this are able to nab permits by showing up when they come on sale, or checking for cancellations. An example of this: I have been lucky with checking for cancellations: two seasons ago, I was able to get a Core Enchantments cancellation for late September (I was only checking once every couple of days, if there were lots of bots I would be surprised if they didn't see it first) and my partner was able to get a Colchuck permit that season too.
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jaysway
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jaysway
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Mon May 02, 2022 1:31 pm |
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| zimmertr wrote: | | Sure, I probably wouldn't public that either. Could be done with something like Selenium or some other macro tool though. |
Totally agree. I just used Selenium for the first time last week and it wasn't hard to use for some simple scraping. I hope that I don't ever have to use a bot to get a permit, but if this becomes an arms race where you have to use one to play the game, what then  ? I hope it doesn't come to that.
zimmertr
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Cyclopath
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Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Cyclopath
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Mon May 02, 2022 1:38 pm |
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| jaysway wrote: | | So the question isn't "can people use bots on recreation.gov" because people clearly do. A better question is "how often are people acquiring permits using bots on recreation.gov." |
No that's not clear at all. I was expecting it to be because people in here speak about it like it's a fact. But so far no one is aware if any evidence that bots are being used to make reservations or enter permit lotteries.
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altasnob
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altasnob
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Mon May 02, 2022 2:04 pm |
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I've joked about getting out competed for permits by bots but I don't have any evidence. But I assume it's just a matter of time before this does become a thing. I also assume it will just be tech dorks doing it for themselves, not monetizing the bot (so how would we know if this is being done). I have had a few friends in internet security who would totally be into something like this, not just to get a campsites/permits, but just for kicks.
For car camping, there's lots of places to camp on a first come, first serve basis, or boondock. But not many places where you can reserve. Being able to reserve a campspot is desirable for some people (easier to tell friends where to meet up, easier for families who don't want to drive around all night looking for a spot).
I'm amazed at just how popular the reservable spots are. Just took a peek at Kalaoch and appears weekends for the entire summer are booked. There's a Tuesday in July available and some weekdays in August available. If reserving campsites is important for you you have to plan your entire summer in February.
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CS
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Joined: 04 Apr 2022
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CS
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Mon May 02, 2022 3:03 pm |
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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman
Joined: 24 Jun 2018
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Location: Newcastle |
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zimmertr
TJ Zimmerman
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Mon May 02, 2022 3:05 pm |
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| Quote: | | Plans start at $10 🤙 |
At least make it free come on. That use of shaka is absolutely not aloha. 😡
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