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treewalker
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PostMon Sep 29, 2003 1:20 pm 
Snow lake is fun, in my opinion. I love going there. If you want solitude, go somewhere that isn't within an hours drive of a major metropolitan area, or move to siberia or something.

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treewalker
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PostMon Sep 29, 2003 1:25 pm 
I still think this issue is inherently misanthropic. Basically the issue seems to be that many want to prevent the "throngs" from visiting pristine places. This seems to be a disrespectful way of categorizing people in my opinion.

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whistlingmarmot
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whistlingmarmot
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PostMon Sep 29, 2003 3:13 pm 
People are worried about people destroying the place, not visiting it.

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McPilchuck
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PostMon Sep 29, 2003 3:15 pm 
"People are worried about people destroying the place, not visiting it." Roger on that, roger on that. "This seems to be a disrespectful way of categorizing people in my opinion." Not in the least. On the contrary, what it says is: a deep respect for the fragility of the land is at hand. That we wish it not end up like the degradation of the surrounding land like that of Snow Lake. That perhaps there is a fine line in its media exposure. That some of us put little fragile areas above other places, that we put above our own want of exposure. Ones that hopefully will remain still somewhat prisitne, so we don't have to go to Siberia. If you don't understand that, then I have failed in trying to communicate this to you. What I would offer, is to experience yourself (solo) a trek overnight into a pristine area full of soiltude to find your own hidden strength and weakness, thus gaining a better perspective perhaps of that fragile quality of land that still remians in somehat of a wild and pristine state. Only then will one perhaps know what I speak of and what a blessing it is to still have little obscure-remote places herein Washington, uncrowded, untrampled from the hordes. McPil

in the granite high-wild alpine land . . . www.alpinequest.com
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Larry
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PostMon Sep 29, 2003 4:45 pm 
"This seems to be a disrespectful way of categorizing people in my opinion." It's not the categorizing of people that is a priority, IMHO. It's the categorizing of the land that is the priority. The land should be categorized, on our own personal level, as to the degree of its pristine nature. People aren't being categorized or disrespected in these instances...it's not a matter of "types of people", it's a matter of sheer masses of people. If you look at "respecting people", then you could look at the care taken in preserving a pristine area from the masses as respect for future generations who might want to seek out those areas on their own.

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MooseAndSquirrel
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PostMon Sep 29, 2003 5:03 pm 
Larry wrote:
If you look at "respecting people", then you could look at the care taken in preserving a pristine area from the masses as respect for future generations who might want to seek out those areas on their own.
Nicely said, Larry! up.gif

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#19
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PostMon Sep 29, 2003 7:55 pm 
Larry wrote:
It's not the categorizing of people that is a priority, IMHO. It's the categorizing of the land that is the priority. The land should be categorized, on our own personal level, as to the degree of its pristine nature.
The last time this subject came up, I tried (very unsuccesfully) to ask why it is more important to "not encourage" visitation of less used areas via trip reports and photos, than already well used areas. It seems to me, that if my words or photos cause a new boot print ANYWHERE, other than on a trail, that it isn't a positive thing in EITHER environment. That is where I think many of us are a bit hypocritcal. Me more than most. Even though I believe what I just wrote, I want to see areas in a pristine state - for me. For my enjoyment.
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marylou wrote: I guess the fact that the route to this place is described in a current guidebook would make me a little less likely to consider it "secret."
If you feel this way then where is the TR and photos?

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Larry
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PostTue Sep 30, 2003 7:43 am 
It seems to me, that if my words or photos cause a new boot print ANYWHERE, other than on a trail, that it isn't a positive thing in EITHER environment. That is where I think many of us are a bit hypocritcal. Me more than most. Even though I believe what I just wrote, I want to see areas in a pristine state - for me. For my enjoyment. I have thought about your points, Closed for painting. I can't disagree with the "boot print" statement. I understand that "one more boot print" at Snow Lake certainly adds to the degradation, at least if the boot print is off the trail. And, I understand that "one boot print only" at Never-Visited Meadow adds to the degradation. So...it still becomes a matter of "degrees", and thus I still feel I have to categorize the area according to how pristine it should be...based on personal criteria (which is probably hypocritical...see below). I am unsure about the "hypocritical" statement though. Do you mean hypocritical in the writing of trip reports...in other words, leaving out a trip report about a pristine area, but writing about a well-used area? Or do you mean hypocritical in the broader sense of differentiating between the areas in general? Or, do you mean hypocritical in that I might want to see Never-Visited Meadow for my own enjoyment...sort of like "my own little slice of heaven", if you will? If this statement is the one you meant, then yeah...I can agree that it is a bit hypocritical, although maybe its more selfish than hypocritical. I have partial justification for my hypocrisy/selfishness in that I can use the hypocrisy/selfishness to preserve the integrity for the future. Hey, I have to rationalize my actions or inactions SOMEHOW! embarassedlaugh.gif

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pkwd1
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PostTue Sep 30, 2003 9:12 am 
I'm fairly new to this website, however I also believe that trails need to be used by all. I was reading the Seattle Times in early July when I came across an article about one of my favorite hiking areas " Corral Pass " up Hwy 410. At first I was sad about how this area would be affected by the additional use and then I realized I just needed to find other areas to hike this summer because I didn't want to be with the crowds. In my exploring, I found a number of trails south of this area that are not popular, but are great hikes and are in guide books. One of the gems I found was a trail to tatoosh from butter creek. I hiked it in late July with a friend and the flowers were in full bloom with seeing only on e other person. The cascades have many hidden gems that can be found if you are looking for them. Good Luck!!

Leadership is a potent combination of strategy and character. But if you must be without one, be without strategy.
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Allison
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PostTue Sep 30, 2003 9:21 am 
pkwd1, this discussion is not really about trail use. It is more about places that have no trail to them. Maybe a boot path, maybe not, but no mapped trail. Most people are less concerned with a place that has a trail to it, as it's a given that people will visit such a place. Pappy/CFP, I generally don't TR. If someone wants to ask me about a particular place, either in person or via PM or email, then I'm willing to oblige.

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Mongo
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PostTue Sep 30, 2003 9:32 am 
You are holding a small finger in a leaky hole in a shaky dike if you think you can stop the publicizing of pristine areas. The information technology of which this bulletin board is just the tip, combined with increasing population will see to that. You always have the personal choice of not spreading information, but ultimately the only real protection for wilderness is education, and/or limiting the number of people, per the enchantments. All of us should be active in getting more people to hike and recreate in the wilderness in a sensitive manner, since people value most what they use and experience. The only way to expand real wilderness protection is to vote for people who will legislate it and provide funds to protect and enforce it.

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Larry
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PostTue Sep 30, 2003 9:51 am 
Mongo wrote:
You are holding a small finger in a leaky hole in a shaky dike if you think you can stop the publicizing of pristine areas. The information technology of which this bulletin board is just the tip, combined with increasing population will see to that. You always have the personal choice of not spreading information, but ultimately the only real protection for wilderness is education, and/or limiting the number of people, per the enchantments. All of us should be active in getting more people to hike and recreate in the wilderness in a sensitive manner, since people value most what they use and experience. The only way to expand real wilderness protection is to vote for people who will legislate it and provide funds to protect and enforce it.
Mongo: Correct-O-Mundo...one can't stop the publicizing of pristine areas. I don't think the crux of this discussion was that we could actually STOP any information about those areas. It's more about a personal choice (albeit a possibly selfish choice) to either "talk up" or "keep quiet" about details of a pristine place, as you state above. Speaking to the broader issue that you brought up about legislating protection...that is certainly the way to go, and I am in total agreement about voting for people who will actively legislate the protection. But, on a more "macroscopic" view...I still think that withholding step-by-step directions to a pristine area is also a viable way to help preserve it...at least on a stopgap basis (yes, probably only temporary). That information technology which you speak of is certainly capable of indexing any comments I make on directions to a pristine area, and spitting it out via a search engine to the world, so that alone validates my point of withholding directions, at least to me. You said a key couple of words: increasing population -- that affects all aspects of our lives.

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Tom
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PostTue Sep 30, 2003 10:43 am 
Larry wrote:
It's more about a personal choice (albeit a possibly selfish choice) to either "talk up" or "keep quiet".
I like the way you put this Lare, becasue in a lot of respects the selfless choice is to keep quiet and preserve a place for the next person who stumbles upon it and the selfish choice is to talk it up. I used to be on completely the other side of the fence and had a hard time grasping this subtle point until I experienced one of these places for myself. It wasn't completely pristine, but the stark contrast to other places I'd been awoke my conscience.

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#19
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PostTue Sep 30, 2003 11:06 am 
Larry wrote:
I am unsure about the "hypocritical" statement though.
Larry, all the things you touched on show our hypocrisy and sometimes our dilemma, IMO. But if the lakes basin that ML's avatar is pointing to isn't worthy of discretion, then I must be a newbie. No ML, I am not cranky about your comments about my Tr for Chickorama Lake, I just think you are a hypocrite for criticizing me for a TR and a then you use your current avatar and think it is OK. Pretty funny. BTW, we both gave almost identical rationals for doing so when initially called on it by each other.

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Allison
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Allison
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PostTue Sep 30, 2003 11:41 am 
Fair enough. I'm still choosing not to TR this place or any other like it. The other people with me that weekend are mostly posters here and they aren't TRing it either. Couple of interesting points: You'd probably attracted more attention to this place by starting the thread than my picture ever would have. If you think about it, why on earth would that picture mean anything to anyone without the controversy now surrounding it? I've recently, and for a long time, been called an elitist for not writing TRs on every trip I do. Now I'm being accused of spilling the beans by using an obscure image for my avatar. Can't win for losing, I suppose. If you all want to get on a bandwagon about a sensitive area getting too much airplay lately, I'd look at the approximately gazillion TRs and photos of the Tank Lakes area in the last couple of months. I'd never thought about going there until this year, and now of course having seen the pictures.....it's right at the top of my list! And ya know what? No one made so much as a squeak of objection to the myriad TRs and pictures of this pristine and gorgeous place! doh.gif

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