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mgd
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Joined: 27 May 2003
Posts: 3143 | TRs | Pics
Location: Full Moon Saloon |
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mgd
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 Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:28 pm |
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| Quote: | | I still don't understand the wilderness argument. They are drilling outside wilderness and by the time they tunnel under "wilderness" they will be 1.5 miles beneath the ground. There are roads and private property within similar proximity to the wilderness boundary that would seem to be more of an encroachment, particularly if you define wilderness as where "the imprint of man's work [is] substantially unnoticeable." |
If it were 2 feet underground, people would complain. If it were 25 feet underground and in the ALW, people would complain. At what point does it become a noncomplaint? Do the ALW boundaries extend down into the earth in a cylinder shape, or a cone whose point is at the earth's center? What does "under the ALW really mean?"
What if it weren't science, but an actual mine. Would it be ok then, as long as it's below surface? Somehow this seems to be agains the idea of wilderness to me.
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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
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Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue Apr 26, 2005 6:35 pm |
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for me it would. if everything is completely underground and there is no impact on the surface, which is where the wildnerness in all it's glory resides, it's plants, animals, and visitors I don't see what the issue is. What is the big deal about digging in rock so deep there isn't any effect on the surface?
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 14152 | TRs | Pics
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
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Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:54 pm |
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No one knows what the impact will be in the future. The facility would be built for one purpose, but they'll think of other things they can do as science continues to unfold. Hell, toxic waste was being buried in metal drums within the city limits of major metro areas up til the 1960's - they didn't think that would be an impact, either. And they were right - it wasn't. Until later.
Give 'em an inch, they'll take a yard. It's 1.5 miles below, sure - but 25 years from now, they'll need another access portal, maybe. Then they'll need this, or that. Perhaps a cafeteria for the workers. Then the tours of the facility will start. Soon it'll be like Mammoth Cave a cafeteria, tours, gift shop...
Then little Johnny (see my example in previous post) gets sick and they rope it off to appease the public. No more access to the Wilderness above.
But if the Wilderness were left alone, none of this would ever, Ever EVER be an issue.
You folks know damn well it'll turn out to be a mess years from now. You know it will!
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
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jimmymac
Zip Lock Bagger
Joined: 14 Nov 2003
Posts: 3705 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lake Wittenmyer, WA |
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jimmymac
Zip Lock Bagger
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Tue Apr 26, 2005 8:54 pm |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | for me it would. if everything is completely underground and there is no impact on the surface, which is where the wildnerness in all it's glory resides, it's plants, animals, and visitors I don't see what the issue is. What is the big deal about digging in rock so deep there isn't any effect on the surface? |
The idea of subterranean encroachment is not a big deal to me. The real impact would seem to be the surface noise, traffic, and combustion byproducts generated by that much material handling. If those impacts (expressed in physical mitigation costs) were added to the project, then batholiths elsewhere might start to look more attractive. In my lifetime, it's the construction "phase" that concerns me the most.
On the plus side, if they hydro cut the rock, they may flood the local market with the extracted blocks. We all may be able to pick up some polished "Mt Stuart" counter tops at the local Walmart for next to nothing.
OK, I'm all for it now.
"Profound serenity is the product of unfaltering Trust and heightened vulnerability."
"Profound serenity is the product of unfaltering Trust and heightened vulnerability."
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MtnGoat
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
Posts: 11992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Lyle, WA |
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MtnGoat
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Tue Apr 26, 2005 9:41 pm |
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| Quark wrote: | | No one knows what the impact will be in the future. The facility would be built for one purpose, but they'll think of other things they can do as science continues to unfold. Hell, toxic waste was being buried in metal drums within the city limits of major metro areas up til the 1960's - they didn't think that would be an impact, either. And they were right - it wasn't. Until later.
Give 'em an inch, they'll take a yard. It's 1.5 miles below, sure - but 25 years from now, they'll need another access portal, maybe. Then they'll need this, or that. Perhaps a cafeteria for the workers. Then the tours of the facility will start. Soon it'll be like Mammoth Cave a cafeteria, tours, gift shop...
Then little Johnny (see my example in previous post) gets sick and they rope it off to appease the public. No more access to the Wilderness above.
But if the Wilderness were left alone, none of this would ever, Ever EVER be an issue.
You folks know damn well it'll turn out to be a mess years from now. You know it will! |
I don't know anything of the sort. If what will happen in the future is a concern, the terms of the agreement can specify future usage conditions to address your concerns.
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
Diplomacy is the art of saying 'Nice doggie' until you can find a rock. - Will Rogers
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 14152 | TRs | Pics
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
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Tue Apr 26, 2005 11:19 pm |
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| MtnGoat wrote: | | If what will happen in the future is a concern, the terms of the agreement can specify future usage conditions to address your concerns. |
The problem with that is, is that government can change law, treaties, and policies written by other administrations. Adhering to a strict definition of Wilderness Act will preserve it's intent longer than making any exception.
Having an agreement, or an Act with exceptions and guidelines means a lot of verbiage subject to definition and intent - thereby making it a lot easier to find a loophole.
Even one exclusion in the Wilderness Act is one too many. It'd be a Pandora's Box.
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
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polarbear
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Joined: 16 Dec 2001
Posts: 3680 | TRs | Pics
Location: Snow Lake hide-away |
| Quote: | | Most of the nation's wilderness is administered by the National Park Service. Science is one of the justifications cited in the 1964 act for creating wilderness. Our use appears fully consistent with the Park Service interpretation of the Wilderness Act as promoting science uses that do not impact wilderness values. We have not found any written policy by the Forest Service for scientific use of wilderness it administers. |
I guess I have to question their use of the word "science" here as well. Does this mean they could set up an array of attenas on all the wilderness lookout towers to try and intercept text messages from extraterrestrials?
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Plinko
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Joined: 22 Apr 2003
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Location: Seattle-ish |
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Plinko
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Wed Apr 27, 2005 8:43 am subterranean encroachment
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| jimmymac wrote: | | The idea of subterranean encroachment is not a big deal to me... |
At first, the owner of this house shared that same sentiment, but may have changed his mind...
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 14152 | TRs | Pics
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
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Wed Apr 27, 2005 9:01 am |
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I'm kinda thinkin' the type of science they may have meant, but didn't articulate, was biological studies. But the Act doesn't say that, so intent is left up to the definition assigned it by the lobby iwth the deepest pockets.
I'm not so much concerned about the experiement-at-hand. Neutrinos aren't very boisterous; I'm concerned the loopholes in the future, both scientific and public.
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
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Malachai Constant
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Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 16092 | TRs | Pics
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
Here is a link to the opponents website. It contains links to the official proposals. The portals would be just past the Eightmile road. The two tunnels would be 20' in diameter and about 3 miles long. This would be a major construction project. 
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Stefan
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Joined: 17 Dec 2001
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Stefan
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Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:21 am |
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| Quark wrote: | | Stef - c'mon. Not everyone is as much a tightwad as you are - I'm not selling out on Wilderness for a measley $30 a year pass. You know better than that. |
I am not selling out. Just coming to a compromise.
This same sort of stuff happens with the expansion of ski areas. Has anyone reviewed the expansions of Crystal and White Pass? Sure, they are not in Wilderness Areas, but why can't those ski organizations say they will maintain the trails within a 15 mile radius of the ski area during the offseason if they are allowed to do expansions?
It makes BOTH parties a winner. I am looking for winners for BOTH parties.
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
Joined: 15 May 2003
Posts: 14152 | TRs | Pics
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
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Wed Apr 27, 2005 10:39 am |
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| Stefan wrote: | | Quark wrote: | | Stef - c'mon. Not everyone is as much a tightwad as you are - I'm not selling out on Wilderness for a measley $30 a year pass. You know better than that. |
I am not selling out. Just coming to a compromise.
It makes BOTH parties a winner. I am looking for winners for BOTH parties. |
It's a good thought, but the $30 per year offer doesn't do the trick. It's like dangling a dried up granola bar in front of me, instead of a blueberry pie.
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
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