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Quark Niece of Alvy Moore
Joined: 15 May 2003 Posts: 14152 | TRs | Pics
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Quark
Niece of Alvy Moore
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Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:17 pm
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We know it isn't free - that's what taxes are for. The thing that is angering people is the additional fees.
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
"...Other than that, the post was more or less accurate."
Bernardo, NW Hikers' Bureau Chief of Reporting
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jenjen Moderatrix
Joined: 30 Jun 2003 Posts: 7617 | TRs | Pics Location: Sierra stylin |
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jenjen
Moderatrix
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Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:40 pm
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Quark wrote: | We know it isn't free - that's what taxes are for. The thing that is angering people is the additional fees. |
Exactly. We've already paid for these lands. We continue to pay for them with our taxes. To charge a fee on top of what we are already paying is just obnoxious.
If life gives you melons - you might be dyslexic
If life gives you melons - you might be dyslexic
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Newt Short Timer
Joined: 21 Dec 2001 Posts: 3176 | TRs | Pics Location: Down the road and around the corner |
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Newt
Short Timer
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Mon Dec 08, 2003 7:07 pm
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Why not a fee to use the sidewalks and crosswalks? Why should cars pay? They don't use them.
And why not a bicycle tax? They use the roads and streets. Money is spent in providing additional road/street width for them. Bicycle signs and symbols too? Who pays for these?
How about trails such as the Burke Gilman? Constructiuon/maint costs to the trail and parking lots? Who pays? I don't know, so I'm just asking.
Free Willie? Free Tibet? Free Trade?
How About.... Free America!!
Just my opinion.
N
It's pretty safe to say that if we take all of man kinds accumulated knowledge, we still don't know everything. So, I hope you understand why I don't believe you know everything. But then again, maybe you do.
It's pretty safe to say that if we take all of man kinds accumulated knowledge, we still don't know everything. So, I hope you understand why I don't believe you know everything. But then again, maybe you do.
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Slugman It’s a Slugfest!
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 16874 | TRs | Pics
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Slugman
It’s a Slugfest!
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Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:32 pm
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Newt! You're not a newbie anymore! How long did that take?
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polarbear Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2001 Posts: 3680 | TRs | Pics Location: Snow Lake hide-away |
Quote: | They are privileges that do cost money to provide. |
Of course what costs money is the access. Lets not forget that the best part, the mountains, forests, glaciers, are about as free as something can get, having been grown, formed and sculptured for millions of years. Hence, the biggest part of the deal, is more like a gift, so why can't we make the smaller part more like one too? I'm priviledge to live--I didn't put myself on this planet. Up until a few years ago I had the right to hike for free. Now it is the privilidge of those who can afford it. We are putting a price tag on this awesome gift. I note that they are proposing one free day. For someone who can't afford it, this would seem like a token gesture which makes the Grinch seem generous. Page three of this Seattle census document shows income distribution for our city. Hmmm...where do I fit in? Who can afford the pass? Who can't?
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Newt Short Timer
Joined: 21 Dec 2001 Posts: 3176 | TRs | Pics Location: Down the road and around the corner |
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Newt
Short Timer
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Tue Dec 09, 2003 5:52 am
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Slugman wrote: | Newt! You're not a newbie anymore! How long did that take? |
The oven was set for 54yr, 7mo, 13d, 2.5h. plus a few min., give or take, and poof, done. Best to keep an eye on it towards the end tho. Your oven may very.
N
It's pretty safe to say that if we take all of man kinds accumulated knowledge, we still don't know everything. So, I hope you understand why I don't believe you know everything. But then again, maybe you do.
It's pretty safe to say that if we take all of man kinds accumulated knowledge, we still don't know everything. So, I hope you understand why I don't believe you know everything. But then again, maybe you do.
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cheakamus Member
Joined: 19 Jul 2003 Posts: 331 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
Thanks for posting the census data, Polarbear!
Looks like the median income for Seattlites is about $45K, i.e., half the households in the city make less. At $45K, I say you have to watch your pennies! You may or may not be able to afford an annual forest pass, depending on what your other expenses are (medical, for instance).
When our kids were small, we used to have a zoo and aquarium pass. As the pass got more expensive, we dropped the aquarium part. Finally, when it got really expensive (and okay, the kids got older) we dropped the pass altogether. Now, we never visit the zoo! (I don't really miss it because at the same time it got more expensive, I began to find it more and more depressing to visit.) Now the politicians are trying to give the zoo its own regional taxing authority so everyone can pay for an ever-more-gradiose facility that not everyone can afford to visit.
It always irks me when someone wants taxpayers to fund something and they say, "It's just a latte a day." I don't drink a latte a day. I don't even drink a latte a week. I probably drink a latte a month, if that! It's not that I absolutely can't afford it--it's just that I have other budgetary priorities (like college for kids, retirement, long-term health care insurance, etc.).
So, yes, the forest pass is unfair and an unreasonable burden on a significant portion of the population.
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Stefan Member
Joined: 17 Dec 2001 Posts: 5091 | TRs | Pics
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Stefan
Member
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Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:16 pm
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cheakamus wrote: | Looks like the median income for Seattlites is about $45K, i.e., half the households in the city make less. |
I call that B.S. They gotta make more.
Here's why. $45x2 living in a house = $90K Rule of thumb for mortgage people handing out loans is that the house is 3x their annual income for the mortgage payments. That means the median house bought nowadays in Seattle city limits should be $270K. I think the median house bought is around $330K within city limits.
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Slugman It’s a Slugfest!
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 16874 | TRs | Pics
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Slugman
It’s a Slugfest!
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Tue Dec 09, 2003 6:52 pm
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Stefan, people often pay more than that when they first move in, hoping to get raises down the road, while the mortgage stays relatively steady. Also, many people bought their houses long ago. If you were to look at the median cost of a Seattle house on the day it purchased, it would be much less than the value now, and less than the median home sale now. Many folks could not afford to re-buy their own home now. Even more important is the fact that many people rent because they can't buy. That said, I really don't know if the figures are accurate. I know that Tanja and I made about 90k between us when we bought our house, and Seattle, West Seattle, Shoreline even, were right out. We moved to Lynnwood as the closest place we could get a nice house on a nice property for under 200k, three and a half years ago. Everything in those other places was either a tear-down, or a postage-stamp lot on a busy street. The median income of home buyers is more than the median for all, due to the renters mentioned above.
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Dale Member
Joined: 28 Jun 2002 Posts: 139 | TRs | Pics
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Dale
Member
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Tue Dec 09, 2003 8:43 pm
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Do any of you know of a site that lists ALL the different fees?
For example I just purchased a 2004 $50 State Parks fee but while surfing for groomed ski trails I found this information:
http://www.parks.wa.gov/parking/
A Natural Investment Permit
The Washington State Parks and Recreation Commission requires a daily or annual fee (A Natural Investment) for the following activities in state parks systemwide:
Vehicle parking
Watercraft launching
Trailer dumping
The commission set the daily permit fee at $7 daily and $70 for an annual permit. This permit is discounted to $5 daily and $50 annually until 2006.
Besides, I thought I paid for lauching my kayak/canoe with my hunting and fishing license.
I am about to give up and stay home. Maybe that is what the government wants me to do. But if I do my spirits will fall, by belly will get bigger, and I may require some serious government sickness care.
Tradeoffs, tradeoffs, politics the art of the possible. Dale
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Slugman It’s a Slugfest!
Joined: 27 Mar 2003 Posts: 16874 | TRs | Pics
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Slugman
It’s a Slugfest!
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Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:28 am
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I believe you're safe with the canoe thing. The boat launch fee is for those who back trailers into the water at boat launches, or who use mechanical boat launchers, like used to exist at Point No Point. Just putting a kayak or canoe into the water by hand is covered by the entrance/parking fee.
I just found out that my new, $20 sno-park pass isn't good at all sno-parks. Oh, no. That would be too simple, a sno-park pass that lets me park at all sno-parks. Some sno-parks are located at groomed ski trails, and then I need a special $20 groomed trails sno-park pass, even if I'm going snowshoeing and won't use the groomed trail. Doesn't matter. So then I ask, "So, I can snowshoe on the groomed trail I paid extra for?" No. No snowshoes allowed on the groomed ski trails. I must pay for it, but then can't even use it. Hurts the grooming or some such excuse. So, I am not going to get the groomed trail pass, probably wouldn't have anyway, since most sno-parks don't require it, and I can avoid the ones that do. It just seems silly to ask someone pay extra for some amenity near a parking area, but not let them use it.
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Malachai Constant Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 16092 | TRs | Pics Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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cheakamus Member
Joined: 19 Jul 2003 Posts: 331 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
Stefan wrote: | I call that B.S. They gotta make more.
Here's why. $45x2 living in a house = $90K Rule of thumb for mortgage people handing out loans is that the house is 3x their annual income for the mortgage payments. That means the median house bought nowadays in Seattle city limits should be $270K. I think the median house bought is around $330K within city limits. |
Just to supplement Slugman's answer: according to the census data almost 52% of people living in Seattle are renters.
We bought our house in Seattle 12 years ago and could not afford to buy it again today, thanks to a combination of soaring house prices and stagnant incomes. BTW, most of the houses on our block (all 4-bedroom) have turned over in the time we've been here, and most are now owned by DINKs or singles.
I'm serious when I say that I look at the $30 annual cost of a forest pass and say to myself, "Is this something I really need?" I did, in fact, end up buying a pass, which I justified on the grounds that it's a health issue (hike or die!), but there's plenty of other things I go without (like stopping for lunch in a state park) because I can't justify the expense.
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Dante Member
Joined: 16 Dec 2001 Posts: 2815 | TRs | Pics
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Dante
Member
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Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:24 pm
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Stefan wrote: | I call that B.S. They gotta make more.
Here's why. $45x2 living in a house = $90K Rule of thumb for mortgage people handing out loans is that the house is 3x their annual income for the mortgage payments. |
Mortgage lenders used to be a lot stricter than they have been recently. I know lots of people whose homes cost WAY more than 3x their annual income, mine included...
The points about renters and dinks in Seattle are good. I heard there are more dogs than kids in the city. Lots of people leave the city when they have kids. Makes sense--my perception is you get a lot more square footage per dollar outside the city.
On the fee issue, I think we need to look beyond the city. A Walmart Greeter who lives in Sumner deserves the same access to public lands as aging Seattle yuppies like me. $20 might be "too much" for lots of people, let alond $65. The fee will either put them out of the woods or out of compliance with the law...
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