Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > DOSEWALLIPS - Another year is lost
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phillyjon
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phillyjon
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PostMon May 30, 2005 6:00 am 
I refrain from using the term "elitist" when refering to enviornmental groups or others who care about the land for future generations, although I would like to know their argument, from them. There may be cases of tempory closures to restore to orginal beauty, or something about the fishys, or expense. Or maybe their zeal turns them to, as said, exclusivists. I reserve the term elitist to those who would deprive people in White Center their hard earned pastimes, in order to have a smoke-free enviornment in Redmond.

"No matter how high one sits upon a pedestal, one still sits upon his arse." Ben Franklin
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Slugman
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PostMon May 30, 2005 9:14 am 
ski: What load being dumped. How is it elitist to sincerely want to protect a grove of ancient trees? I think they're wrong, but to apply the epithet "elitist" is to bring an important discusion about spending priorities, access, and conservation down to the level of a poop flinging contest. And if you think ordinary people in less than prime shape can do any of the dayhikes accesible from the Dosewallips road end, then you have never met a normal person. Those hikes are tough, road closure or no road closure. I know, because I've done or attempted most of them. Phillyjon: And how does a person's desire to sicken other people through their drug habits relate in any way to this discussion? Nobody has a right to be a drug addict, especially when they are polluting the air that employees must breath, or lose their jobs. Talk about taking away somebody's livelihood! And it's nonsensical anyway, since business has picked up in places like New York that have banned drug addicts from polluting the air that normal people have to breath. Take your drugs outside, or better yet do yourself a favor and give up your nasty, smelly, drug addiction. The right to breath clean air obviously trumps any right to smoke. But as long as nobody has to breath the foul stench besides the user, then I say do whatever you want. It's a free country, until your freedom stamps out the freedom of others.

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Malachai Constant
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PostMon May 30, 2005 7:36 pm 
The road is closed because the money is not available to fix it, some environmental groups may have protested but that is not the real reason only an excuse. In the big scheme it is not worth a bucker of warm spit. There are NOT boatloads of disable prevented from going to Lake Constance because they have a few extra miles. Same thing for Constance or Marmot Pass. What a crock huh.gif

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Tom
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PostMon May 30, 2005 10:53 pm 
Malachai Constant wrote:
The road is closed because the money is not available to fix it, some environmental groups may have protested but that is not the real reason only an excuse.
Really? Seems odd the FS would announce in March of last year they would rebuild the road, only to discover they had no money? I'm sure the environmental groups had no influence. dizzy.gif

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Allison
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PostMon May 30, 2005 11:04 pm 
Who was fighting it? I never keep up on the stuff in the Olympics, though I should.

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Ski
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PostTue May 31, 2005 11:29 am 
dosewallips
A new EA ( or EIS ) is being done on this project. The road washout exposed a section of bank which is supplying new gravel into the streambed, providing additional spawning habitat for anadromous salmonids ( Chinook ). The proposed re-route ( approx. 8/10 of a mile ) would require the removal of about 200 trees over 21" ( DBH ), not all of which is uncompromised temperate rain forest. Funding for new road construction will more than likely come from ERFO funds. Expect no action on this project for about 18-24 months.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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phillyjon
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PostWed Jun 01, 2005 6:14 pm 
Slugman wrote:
Phillyjon: And how does a person's desire to sicken other people through their drug habits relate in any way to this discussion? Nobody has a right to be a drug addict, especially when they are polluting the air that employees must breath, or lose their jobs. Talk about taking away somebody's livelihood! And it's nonsensical anyway, since business has picked up in places like New York that have banned drug addicts from polluting the air that normal people have to breath. Take your drugs outside, or better yet do yourself a favor and give up your nasty, smelly, drug addiction. The right to breath clean air obviously trumps any right to smoke. But as long as nobody has to breath the foul stench besides the user, then I say do whatever you want. It's a free country, until your freedom stamps out the freedom of others.
moon.gif moon.gif moon.gif I'll take this one over at the Devils Club. They'd love to see two lefties go at it.

"No matter how high one sits upon a pedestal, one still sits upon his arse." Ben Franklin
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phillyjon
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PostWed Jun 01, 2005 6:57 pm 
I just read a long letter in the Trail Talk section of WTA's WASHINGTON TRAILS magazine that made me think I might not have been as observant of the trees in the area. I'll just quote a couple paragraphs. The author from Sequim says: "I've visited this area on several occasions. Part of it was selectively logged more than a half century ago. The rest harbors a spectacular old-growth Douglas fir- hemlock forest with a number of trees measuring more than 6 feet in diameter. There are few stands like it remaining in the east Olympics. " More importantly, this area has been identified as critical spotted owl and marbled murrelet nesting habitat. The Northwest Forest Plan designated it a late successional reserve and the adjacent Dosewallops river a key watershed for salmon. The Dosewallips supports federally listed chinook and chum salmon among other stocks." These points are of some concern. The author further goes on, though, to advocate not re-opening allot of roads that wash out, including the Carbon River Road in Mt. Rainier Nat. Park. I've walked that road in early spring, and indeed it is a luxurient old-growth area that is missed by just about everyone, because they're too busy dodging potholes. However, at first I was for closing it, but now I am for leaving it open. If someone wants to walk the road, there is no one to stop them.

"No matter how high one sits upon a pedestal, one still sits upon his arse." Ben Franklin
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Lagerman
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PostWed Jun 01, 2005 8:58 pm 
More importantly PFFFT The best thing would have been to put bountys on the spotted owl a long time ago, but no, lets put familys out istead of a bird...

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Doomgoggles
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PostWed Jun 01, 2005 10:55 pm 
Having seen the washout, I still believe it would be possible to construct a bridge which would not affect the new spawning area. (no mid-span support). Clearly this would not affect the trees, and might not be that much more expensive. btw: how close does the proposed bypass get to the Buckhorn Wilderness area?

Now for wrath, now for ruin...and the Red Dawn!
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PostWed Jun 01, 2005 11:53 pm 
doseallips/road closures
PhillyJon- in re: letter in WTA magazine Yes, the proposed road re-route goes through an LSR, some of which was previously logged. Yes, the Dosewallips supports anadromous salmonids. Yes, the area is suitable habitat for threatened and/or endangered species. All of these are valid arguments for NOT re-constructing the road. However, "suitable habitat for spotted owls and marbled murrelets" needs to be taken with a grain of salt. An example of this would be the Carbon River Road, where there was an abandoned marbled murrelet nest about 1.5 miles in from the beginning of the road. The nest was monitored for several years while they waited for the bird to come back. The abandoned nest was but one of many issues which delayed the re-opening of the road. The forest along the Carbon River Road is one of the last remaining contiguous segments of uncompromised, mid-elevation temperate rain forest in the Pacific Northwest. There was a trail report recently posted on this site by a woman who hiked up the Carbon River Trail with a group of children. I have to wonder how far a group with small children would have made it ( had the road still been closed ) trudging up that additional 5 miles of gravel road. Road closures of this nature result in lost opportunities for an ever-growing user group of "car campers". The present closure of the Dosewallips road prevents access to 49 drive-to campsites in two campgrounds ( Dosewallips and Elkhorn ). Additionally, lack of vehicle access to these sites has negative effects. An example of this was extensive vandalism to most of the park structures at the end of the Carbon River Road several years ago. At Dosewallips, ONP has a ranger station, a dorm, a hydroelectric facility, and several other structures, all of which will ultimately suffer from a lack of maintenance. The vault toilets need to be pumped out, and there's no way to get a truck in there to pump them out. The Queets River Road is presently closed due to a washout, and the same conditions exist as on the Dosewallips. The ranger station has already been broken into. The inability of law enforcement to access the area can only further aggravate the already out-of-control problem of poaching ( salmon, steelhead, elk ) in an area notorious for poaching. Presently in ONP, there are 871 vehicle-accessible campsites at 14 campgrounds, down from 950 campsites at 17 campgrounds 5 years ago. ( The re-assignment of the July Creek CG to a "day use only" site took away 29 drive-in sites ) Personally, I don't use campgrounds. I hate campgrounds. They're crowded, noisy, and always smell bad ( a mix of wet dog, rotting garbage, and toilet ). I've spent many days, though, cleaning them up: shoveling out firepits ( after picking out cigarette butts and shards of broken beer bottles ); cleaning up other people's garbage; and clearing blow-downs. I do this because I believe the people who use them have just as much right to be there as I do on on the trails above them. Forest management is not black and white. It's a compromise of trying to fulfill the needs and wants of a wide variety of users while still preserving habitat and the landscape. I'll trade those 49 campsites, and the ability of a mom with a vanload of kids to drive to a trailhead for 200 trees any ol' day. One cannot make omelettes without breaking eggs.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostThu Jun 02, 2005 12:10 am 
dosewallips/road closures
( sure wish there was an "edit" button somewhere here ) In my previous post, I wrote: The forest along the Carbon River Road is one of the last remaining contiguous segments of uncompromised, mid-elevation temperate rain forest in the Pacific Northwest. Should have been: The forest along the Carbon River Road is one of the last remaining contiguous segments of uncompromised, INLAND mid-elevation temperate rain forest in the Pacific Northwest. And to reiterate something I mentioned in a previous post on this issue: The lack of access to drive-to campsites puts greater pressure on other sites, further aggravating problems with over-crowding and the detrimental impacts of increased user loads.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Timber Cruiser
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PostThu Jun 02, 2005 11:55 am 
ski wrote:
PhillyJon- in re: letter in WTA magazine All of these are valid arguments for NOT re-constructing the road. However, "suitable habitat for spotted owls and marbled murrelets" needs to be taken with a grain of salt. An example of this would be the Carbon River Road, where there was an abandoned marbled murrelet nest about 1.5 miles in from the beginning of the road. The nest was monitored for several years while they waited for the bird to come back. The abandoned nest was but one of many issues which delayed the re-opening of the road.
Do you have a reference for this that I could look into? Talk about a red herring. Marbled Murrelets don't build nests! If the stand of trees was deemed occupied habitat (which it should have been if "nesting" behavior was observed - which can be determined by flight patterns ), the only restriction would have been on removing any trees during the road maintenance operation or use of noisy equipment around the hours of dawn and dusk during the nesting season. That shouldn't have affected opening of the road in most cases.

"Logging encourages the maintenance of foilage by providing economic alternatives to development."
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Lagerman
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PostThu Jun 02, 2005 1:19 pm 
Ya, isnt it fun when you have to start work late because you cant disturb animals humping? No one has ever given me that consideration!! hockeygrin.gif

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reststep
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PostThu Jun 02, 2005 3:13 pm 
marylou wrote:
Who was fighting it? I never keep up on the stuff in the Olympics, though I should.
One group that is fighting it is Olympic Park Associates

"The mountains are calling and I must go." - John Muir
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