[Sabahsboy]

With all the information flying around, is there any means that some of it can be put together and formalized; then comments and/or inquiries made of officials? And to whom would it be most effective to address comments and inquiries with greatest impact, bypassing those officials that would wish to suppress any challenges to the planning, esp. in light that the plans are dated in 2006? My thought is our governor, but not until after election dust has settled. And, Committee Chairs (relevant to our cause or cause of environment and public access....) at State Legislature. There must be more...and, certainly, officials, elected, appointed or career who oversee agencies involved. In fact, this would let them know that they must defend and/or justify planning, such as closure of Sultan Basin Road, now at Grieder Lakes TH, later at Olney Pass, etc.). Maybe we can get our collective heads together and come up with effective strategy? Bet we can! There are several areas of interest (geographic areas) that might be merged, since all are linked: Sultan Basin and watershed - Spada Lake drainage region; drainages with formerly active logging or mining roads that could provide excellent trails, many or all of the low elevation kind so rare in the Cascades. Consider maintaining trails to Boulder and Grieder Lakes and enhencing those routes (there is a beautiful bridge near the TH to Boulder Lake plus rest rooms, etc.. ). Maybe even runnig a trail up to fabled Copper Lake! The trail from Ashland Lakes across ridge to reach Cutthroat Lakes and loop back to re-instated Walt Bailey Trail (yes, spend some to maintain road access to Walt's TH). Olney Creek - Mount Stickney and Lake Stickney, formerly a popular, drive-in area; Mount Stickney access and public forest lands; Wallace Falls State Park; Wild Sky Wilderness (Lake Isabel - Ragged Ridge unit); Possible other areas? Index Townsite (that might be a stretch; but the Index-Garland Springs road could be included since it has been a perennial maintenance problem and now must be replaced to provide access to extant, vacation home sites, road access to Blanca Lake TH and access to trails that weave from valleys to Cascade Crest. Thence, the Beckler River Road and access / loop road it provides the region. Some of this is well within or edges to protected areas; some is within recent clear cuts. Trails are being reclaimed at Johnson Ridge (I understand) to provide more trail miles and differing access, a good way to disperse hikers and horsemen rather than gang all onto a single route. The population of Puget Sound region is not ever going to retreat; it is doubtful that the percentage of population will ever fall so low as to make trail maintenance a silly and useless issue; ditto access roads to trailheads. If allowed, there will always be pressure to take mineral and renewable (forest) wealth from the fringes of Pugetopolis. Biggest risk is the ever greater need for gravel and rock; but prescious and other metals could cause rapid development and decline in Puget City's hinterland. WATER: This could be the key in preservation...and is being used (?) by those Snohomish planners to close off many, many square miles. However, the entire Cascade Range is a water source, a reservoir, much of it purified by waters percolating through tree roots and other perennial and annual plants. This system holds soils, soils that are not ancient since those were scraped away by Ice Age Claciers. By peeling away the forst cover, we allow rainfall to etch the surfaces and become erosion zones, washouts and other catastrophic (geologic) events. It would take an awful lot of people peeing to do equivalent damage, eh?! Perhaps 1.3 billion folks at the very exact moment, unleashing a torent down a selected stream. but, then, there would be no standing room, would there?! What is needed is expansion of trails and routes for an ever expanding population of hikers, both day hikers and backpackers as well as scramblers, climbers and technical climbers, etc. Then, of course, how to keep separate the ATVers/ORVers, mountain bikers, horsemen, and other users plus the seasonal hunters (minus those under 16 years old...another issue, of course). And, kayakers, float trip operators and solo floaters on streams and lakes, etc. And, can flights be regulated for landings on Lake Isabel and other high lakes? Then, the High Lakers and their kind that plant fry and fish and love-to-death fishing holes of fishermen. Many of these folks glory in the sport and rarely take the fish, but return the critters ot waters for yet another season of growth. Of migratory fish in the Spada Lake Basin....are there any? I don' tknow, but I think there is no means for ocean going, migratory salmon to reach upper Olney, but esp. upper Sultan and other rivers. I could be wrong, though. Nevertheless, native, fresh water fish deserve a fine environment low on silt run-off and high in valued nutrients, shade and such...mosquitos inclusive. Without access, who will venture into back country to weed out Crupina vulgaris and other noxious weeds? How will bears and frogs be counted as Global Warming takes on even greater effect? The present Administration wishes to allow vast expansion of development on public lands via new and Federal (taxpayer) paid roads; yet, over the ridge we have the obverse. It is a crazy quilt of regulation, non-regulation, inferior planninig and far worse politics. I am just throwing out thoughts...forgive me! SB Potential Study Area: Mount Pilchuck at NW corner to Monte Cristo road and Glacier Basin at the NE corner; Skykomish Ranger Station at the SE corner to Blue Mountain at the SW corner. However, this is an irregular polygon and really must be examined as to what should be studied and expanded. Some of the peripheral or "buffer" around Wild Sky Wilderness needs to be examined. There are many potential hikes or present routes that are difficult and should be made easer for families to hike, such as some historic mne sites, maybe and most especial, Mineral City. Hey! We need a good trail with signage to access Lake Isabel! How about a trail that is more formal that runs from Upper Falls of Wallace River to the upper reaches of Wallace River, perhaps creating a loop over ridge to descend to Lake Isabel. And, re-establish the RR / Road bed as TRAIL, eastwardly from Upper Falls of Wallace River on the extant grade (go west and reach Wallace Lake) to Lake Isabel. Of course, some cash$ is needed to build a foot bridge across Wallace River just above brink of Upper Falls, a spectacular spot if ever there was one!

[Scrooge]

A minor point: SG, you rememember that "half of $242,000 would be required fish-friendly culverts, etc? Sabahsboy just speculated

[Hulksmash]

Sabahsboy wrote

[Scrooge]

Poor Spada fishies. I did a little reading in that "pre-licensing document", and happened to dig into Factors Limiting Trout Production in Spada Lake Final Technical Report for Revised Study Plan 16: Spada Lake Trout Production to try to gain some insight into how the needs of the fish in Sultan Basin could effect a decision to end public access to the area. Here are a couple of samples from that Trout Production study (one tiny piece of the expenditures that could have gone to fill a pothole. ....... This is an excerpt from the Introduction:

[Backpacker Joe]

People used to land planes on Isabel all the time. Occasionally crashing there too. Im not sure what the "Wild Sky" says about that.

[Hulksmash]

I have to admit when i got to this stuff my eyes glazed over

[Backpacker Joe]

Hey Hulker, I'm not sure if you are, but I'm a pilot and I can tell you that the last few crashes have happened on take off. I was there a few days after the recovery of a Lake Buccaneer that stalled in on take off. They pulled it out with a CH47. All four people died. It was a major bummer. Because all the lakes capable of accepting float planes have been locked up in wilderness areas nobody has any mountain lake flying experience anymore. For example there is a Piper Super Cub sitting upside down at the bottom of Spade lake. There is a Piper Tri Pacer sitting upside down at the bottom of Otter lake. Etc etc etc. It wouldn't surprise me if Angeline had a plane in her mits either. Interesting.

[Sabahsboy]

Not weighing in on anythig...just hope the thread keeps going and a group can form and pose some strategy to present to some certain Governor(s), Senators, Congresspersons, Legistlators, et al. Yup! Since my last input a day ago, there is some very fascinating and valuable info and observation. Thank you all and we'll keep up the good work! Pray that Sultan Basin will have a Renaissance rather than a burial!

[Hulksmash]

As i read through relicencing douments, i keep finding references to Wahington Climbers Coalition, American Whitewater, American Rivers, Snohomish County Sportsmen Association, Prospectors Mining Association, Trout Unlimited, Hydropower Reform Coalition (there's a hydropower reform coalition?! ) The one association I cannot find is the Wahington Trail Association. Where is the WTA? Why haven't they issued any concerns regarding loosing access to Boulder and Grider Lakes?

[Jason Hummel]

As a former whitewater boater, I am dismayed to see access for kayaking further limited (just as i am for hiking and climbing and skiing ie crystal mountain and mount rainier park). Sultan is a beautiful creek and with conflict with dams and dam projects, we are further at odds. There was a plan for miniature damn projects at one point, now maybe more in the works with the cost of fuel and such. Over the years, access is an increasingly touchy issue, especially as storms wreck havoc on improvements and repairs. These past few years have been hard. I remember once on the white river being accosted by cop-sorts (not cops) hired by the logging companies (i'm assuming). I guess there was a fire ban and we weren't allowed on the property. It was raining and we walked a short way up a logging road to get off the creek. They had several vehicles waiting for us. It was a very unpleasant experience with lots of verbal abuse to which we said little. There are a few good projects I see. The damn being taken down on the Elwha and White Salmon Rivers. These are good improvements. I'm not well informed with access of the past beyond that of my own experience. It has seemed to me that it is becoming increasingly hard to understand when, where, how, why and so forth. I can't imagine taking a family out. It would be costly. There needs to be access or people will forget the wilderness and the monies needed to maintain will dry up along with the protections. Most importantly, it needs to be affordable. To me 30 bucks here and 5 bucks there isn't bad, but it really adds up for a family. Nevertheless it would be sad to see access further limited on the Sultan. If 250k to fix a road is the reasoning behind it, then that seems minor. If there are other reasons, then maybe I would understand it better? What I think needs to happen is a cultural change. Young adults in high school or just after need to volunteer for public service. It would be great if this were a requirement to graduate high school or college. 6 months building trails or cleaning up garbage or working any sort of job. Just in some way giving back, beginning at an early age to install a good ethos.

[Dalekz]

I sort of remember a number of years ago reading that the DNR had decided to cut their recreation access budget to next to nothing and everyting was going in for timber. I think they started on the east side by closing gates for access etc. Probably what is happening in the sultun area. Just remember that the DNR head is up for re-election this year. Maybe a change will also result in a change of their policys.

[Sultan Guy]

To help the folks here better understand exactly what has happened in the Sultan Basin here is the official transcripts from a public meeting held 9/19/2007. I was not at this meeting but was at a meeting held 5/28/2008. There are significant updates from the May meeting that are not yet posted online.

[Sultan Guy]

Here is a weblink to a not so detailed map of the newly created Morning Star NRCA. http://www.dnr.wa.gov/Publications/em_nr07_138.pdf

[Scrooge]

Interesting. Private lands bordering the upper third of Williamson Creek, and the whole slope up to Marble Pass. Also National Forest lands up to and around Copper Lake, as well as down the slope north of Marble Pass. When DNR closes off Sultan Basin, they won't have any say in what goes on up there ......... and they won't even have any presence in the Basin to check up on what goes on up around the Williamson Creek headwaters. I'd say that, in the future, there's a pretty good chance we'll be able to build a decent trail over the Pass. No bridge, but fording ........ or rafting rivers has been standard practice in a lot of places for a lot of years.

[Hulksmash]

Scrooge wrote: