Previous :: Next Topic |
Author |
Message |
FUN CH Member
Joined: 25 Feb 2013 Posts: 334 | TRs | Pics
|
|
FUN CH
Member
|
Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:02 pm
|
|
|
BigSteve wrote: | hikersarenumber1 wrote: | The more people who go off trail the more off trail becomes on trail. |
Not a problem on snow, glacier, talus or rock |
Except while traveling off trail to the areas you mention. These off trail, trails happen because the terrain dictates where people will walk off trail to access a climb and a new trail is eventually created. Often these trails follow the fall line and are not built to midigate erosion. I just hope people don't post directions to their favorite off trail destinations. A few people going off trail in one area is not much of an impact to fragile plant populations, but many boots are.
'' what did you dream, it's alright we told we told you what to dream....so welcome to the machine'' David Gilmor (pink floyd)
'' what did you dream, it's alright we told we told you what to dream....so welcome to the machine'' David Gilmor (pink floyd)
|
Back to top |
|
|
DIYSteve seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007 Posts: 12655 | TRs | Pics Location: here now |
|
DIYSteve
seeking hygge
|
Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:06 pm
|
|
|
Freeski wrote: | trails happen because the terrain dictates where people will walk off trail to access a climb |
Yes, of course trails form on access to the more popular climbing routes, and many of them are eroded messes. I was talking more about less frequented places.
|
Back to top |
|
|
NacMacFeegle Member
Joined: 16 Jan 2014 Posts: 2653 | TRs | Pics Location: United States |
Not much to add to this discussion that hasn't already been said; LNT is really more of a philosophy of leaving as little trace as possible rather than no trace at all. Scrambling around off-trail is fine as long as you take a reasonable amount of care not to overly disturb wildlife or damage the more delicate varieties of plants.
|
Back to top |
|
|
gb Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 6308 | TRs | Pics
|
|
gb
Member
|
Wed Jun 03, 2015 5:21 am
|
|
|
I practice leave no trace as much as I can and get better and more conscientious at this as time goes on.
In the past five years i've carried a small metal trowel (when I don't have an ice axe). I burn my toilet paper except when high risk and then I carry it out. I will burn it in the middle of a trail (not high use), in rocks, lithosol, etc., not in duff. If a bit windy or gusty I have a polybottle handy and will sometimes burn one sheet at a time.
If I travel off trail, (not glaciers, rock, moraine) I route find very conscientiously, choosing a route that minimizes travel on fragile vegetation; especially avoiding heather, alpine (not meadow) flowers, and mossy areas. I walk on rocks, stepping stones, and dirt as much as I can. And when I've guided or lead groups I emphasize the same to those with less experience and set a good example.
In very remote areas I primarily worry about heather or woody perennials in the desert and mossy areas which I try to avoid like the plague.
I take breaks only on barren ground or grass, which recovers well except in very high use areas.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Ski ><((((°>
Joined: 28 May 2005 Posts: 12829 | TRs | Pics Location: tacoma |
|
Ski
><((((°>
|
Wed Jun 03, 2015 10:12 am
|
|
|
I'm so obsessed with LNT that I eat my toilet paper.
I'm considering switching my boots for stilts to reduce my "footprint" too.
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
|
Back to top |
|
|
gb Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 6308 | TRs | Pics
|
|
gb
Member
|
Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:10 pm
|
|
|
Heather, I understand, when broken can take up to about 7 years to re-generate back to a comparable original form.
|
Back to top |
|
|
DIYSteve seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007 Posts: 12655 | TRs | Pics Location: here now |
|
DIYSteve
seeking hygge
|
Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:15 pm
|
|
|
IME, most heather slopes have bare steps formed by marmots or other critters
|
Back to top |
|
|
mike Member
Joined: 09 Jul 2004 Posts: 6397 | TRs | Pics Location: SJIsl |
|
mike
Member
|
Wed Jun 03, 2015 1:47 pm
|
|
|
BigSteve wrote: | Yes, of course trails form on access to the more popular climbing routes, and many of them are eroded messes. I was talking more about less frequented places. |
More and more I frequently read TR's where the "climber's trail" is mentioned. 40 years ago none of these existed. Off trail rambles are leaving their mark.
|
Back to top |
|
|
Malachai Constant Member
Joined: 13 Jan 2002 Posts: 16092 | TRs | Pics Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny |
At contrair Michael there were many "climbers trail" just look at an old edition of Beckey. There was probably more "mountain climbing" going on then than now since the advent of Sport Climbing. It is just well publicized now since the advent of the Internet.
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
|
Back to top |
|
|
DIYSteve seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007 Posts: 12655 | TRs | Pics Location: here now |
|
DIYSteve
seeking hygge
|
Wed Jun 03, 2015 2:54 pm
|
|
|
The well-established treads on the standard routes of Mt. Forgotten and Sloan Peak are a couple examples of climber's trails that have existed for decades.
|
Back to top |
|
|
spamfoote Member
Joined: 26 Oct 2014 Posts: 860 | TRs | Pics
|
BigSteve wrote: | The well-established treads on the standard routes of Mt. Forgotten and Sloan Peak are a couple examples of climber's trails that have existed for decades. |
Well, at least in Sloan peaks case, that actually used to be a trail. I believe this is also true of the trail on Forgotten.
True climbers trails are like going to Snowfield peak out of Pyramid lake, or Mt. Redoubt.
Effectively the Ptarmigan traverse is a trail. In fact, if I were the FS, I would install a pit toilets along the route at all of the camp spots. Would take essentially no $$$ to clean up Kool-aid, White rocks, Cub Lake, etc camp spots. Instead we get giant useless expensive bridges over trickles that at best need a single rock hop to cross... Don't forget all the picnic tables tossed haphazardly around trailhead parking lots just so they can collect more taxes...
|
Back to top |
|
|
Schenk Off Leash Man
Joined: 16 Apr 2012 Posts: 2372 | TRs | Pics Location: Traveling, with the bear, to the other side of the Mountain |
|
Schenk
Off Leash Man
|
Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:10 pm
|
|
|
Kevin wrote: | How do you determine which varieties are more delicate? |
Certainly not complete, but this is my personal, general, guide:
Flowers...flowers are needed to propagate any annual species each year.
Plants that look like succulents are generally less "durable".
Anything that goes "crunch" when trodden upon is going to suffer damage. Heather comes to mind there.
Grasses tend to be more resilient.
Anything to tall for you to step on should be more resistant to boot damage...hahaha
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
Nature exists with a stark indifference to humans' situation.
|
Back to top |
|
|
DIYSteve seeking hygge
Joined: 06 Mar 2007 Posts: 12655 | TRs | Pics Location: here now |
|
DIYSteve
seeking hygge
|
Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:19 pm
|
|
|
spamfoote wrote: | Well, at least in Sloan peaks case, that actually used to be a trail. I believe this is also true of the trail on Forgotten. |
What do you mean? They are both well-established trails that have been there for a long time. Indeed, the tread on the Sloan ledges, quite obviously a goat tread, was likely there before humans traveled on it. So, when did either of these trails cease to be "trails?"
ETA: FWIW, I'm talking about the trail to Forgotten from the end of the Perry Creek trail.
spamfoote wrote: | True climbers trails are like going to Snowfield peak out of Pyramid lake, or Mt. Redoubt. |
"True" climbing trails? Huh? Is the goat trail-turned-climber's trail on Sloan a "false trail?"
I've been on all four of these treads, and I have no clue what you are trying to say.
|
Back to top |
|
|
gb Member
Joined: 01 Jul 2010 Posts: 6308 | TRs | Pics
|
|
gb
Member
|
Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:32 pm
|
|
|
The SE Ridge of Cutthroat was a decent route when I first did it in the 70's. I was up with a friend for a few climbs about a decade ago and decided to make Cutthroat our last climb. Much of it is now a gravel pile as all the vegetation that was once there is gone. It frankly wasn't worth the bother. The S face of the Tooth tells the same story. The worst, of course, is the approach gully to Liberty Bell - Concord which was once mostly partridge foot (I believe) and pleasant foot steps. For many years, now, it has become a dangerous gully loaded with loose rocks. Very little of the native vegetation remains. I'd be much more likely to wear a helmet on the approach than on the climb.
Environmentally, these are small concentrated areas where really only climbers go (and have gone) and don't concern me as much as decimated meadows, multiple trails as careless individuals don't stay on older tread, and similar examples - more widespread.
|
Back to top |
|
|
drm Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2007 Posts: 1376 | TRs | Pics Location: The Dalles, OR |
|
drm
Member
|
Wed Jun 03, 2015 3:35 pm
|
|
|
It seems that in the most extreme cases of big mountain expeditions that some mountaineers do think they are an exception to any concept of environmental ethics. Enough so that there is a backlash against that by other mountaineers.
I guess the question here is whether there is any analogy between Himalayan Basecamp trash dumps and the impact of more popular climbing routes. And it isn't just getting to them. What about fixed belay anchors and the like? While the impact is very different, I do think there is some analogy.
I've always had some concern about the literal meaning of LNT since leaving absolutely no trace is not possible. But nobody is going to advocate for LALTAP (leave as little trace as possible). I do have a concern about the idea mentioned before that as long as you are following some kind of trail, it is okay. I think that unplanned social/approach access trails can in some cases be among the worst. One person who happens to step on an anthill or break a heather branch doesn't worry me. Lots of people doing that in the same place do worry me.
|
Back to top |
|
|
|