[FUN CH]

[DIYSteve]

[NacMacFeegle]

Not much to add to this discussion that hasn't already been said; LNT is really more of a philosophy of leaving as little trace as possible rather than no trace at all. Scrambling around off-trail is fine as long as you take a reasonable amount of care not to overly disturb wildlife or damage the more delicate varieties of plants.

[gb]

I practice leave no trace as much as I can and get better and more conscientious at this as time goes on. In the past five years i've carried a small metal trowel (when I don't have an ice axe). I burn my toilet paper except when high risk and then I carry it out. I will burn it in the middle of a trail (not high use), in rocks, lithosol, etc., not in duff. If a bit windy or gusty I have a polybottle handy and will sometimes burn one sheet at a time. If I travel off trail, (not glaciers, rock, moraine) I route find very conscientiously, choosing a route that minimizes travel on fragile vegetation; especially avoiding heather, alpine (not meadow) flowers, and mossy areas. I walk on rocks, stepping stones, and dirt as much as I can. And when I've guided or lead groups I emphasize the same to those with less experience and set a good example. In very remote areas I primarily worry about heather or woody perennials in the desert and mossy areas which I try to avoid like the plague. I take breaks only on barren ground or grass, which recovers well except in very high use areas.

[Ski]

I'm so obsessed with LNT that I eat my toilet paper. I'm considering switching my boots for stilts to reduce my "footprint" too.

[gb]

Heather, I understand, when broken can take up to about 7 years to re-generate back to a comparable original form.

[DIYSteve]

IME, most heather slopes have bare steps formed by marmots or other critters

[mike]

[Malachai Constant]

At contrair Michael there were many "climbers trail" just look at an old edition of Beckey. There was probably more "mountain climbing" going on then than now since the advent of Sport Climbing. It is just well publicized now since the advent of the Internet.

[DIYSteve]

The well-established treads on the standard routes of Mt. Forgotten and Sloan Peak are a couple examples of climber's trails that have existed for decades.

[spamfoote]

[Schenk]

[DIYSteve]

[gb]

The SE Ridge of Cutthroat was a decent route when I first did it in the 70's. I was up with a friend for a few climbs about a decade ago and decided to make Cutthroat our last climb. Much of it is now a gravel pile as all the vegetation that was once there is gone. It frankly wasn't worth the bother. The S face of the Tooth tells the same story. The worst, of course, is the approach gully to Liberty Bell - Concord which was once mostly partridge foot (I believe) and pleasant foot steps. For many years, now, it has become a dangerous gully loaded with loose rocks. Very little of the native vegetation remains. I'd be much more likely to wear a helmet on the approach than on the climb. Environmentally, these are small concentrated areas where really only climbers go (and have gone) and don't concern me as much as decimated meadows, multiple trails as careless individuals don't stay on older tread, and similar examples - more widespread.

[drm]

It seems that in the most extreme cases of big mountain expeditions that some mountaineers do think they are an exception to any concept of environmental ethics. Enough so that there is a backlash against that by other mountaineers. I guess the question here is whether there is any analogy between Himalayan Basecamp trash dumps and the impact of more popular climbing routes. And it isn't just getting to them. What about fixed belay anchors and the like? While the impact is very different, I do think there is some analogy. I've always had some concern about the literal meaning of LNT since leaving absolutely no trace is not possible. But nobody is going to advocate for LALTAP (leave as little trace as possible). I do have a concern about the idea mentioned before that as long as you are following some kind of trail, it is okay. I think that unplanned social/approach access trails can in some cases be among the worst. One person who happens to step on an anthill or break a heather branch doesn't worry me. Lots of people doing that in the same place do worry me.