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cdestroyer
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PostSun Sep 11, 2016 4:50 pm 
Question? why do you hike the national forest?.....do you do it for the scenery,,which you can get merely by looking at some photos..do you do it for the exercise, but as has been pointed out you can exercise in the gym...or,,,do you do it because you are so stressed out from normal civilization that you have to get away somewhere away from it all... the more people that inhabit this planet the more stress you are gonna have to put up with..so many people are wanting to hike the backwoods that soon it will be like hot bunking..you arrive at a camp site as the others are leaving and bid thee ado..back in the day when I was hiking I seldom saw a soul over a weekend and only one or two over a month.. was many a time I sat just off trail and watched as you quote unquote passed by me without noticing.... most of you I read about here are in a hurry to get from point a to b and never see what is in between......here is a test...next time you hike and get 4 or 5 miles from the TH STOP, remain as calm as possible and listen..tell me what you hear!!!

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Ski
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PostSun Sep 11, 2016 5:38 pm 
RandyHiker wrote:
"...the "10% ass#### factor"..."
I don't think it's even 10%, Randy. I'd put it down to more like maybe 5%, maybe less. Most users - of any given user group - hikers, mountain bikers, motorcycle riders, equestrians, hunters, shooters - are fairly conscientious people. Unfortunately it's a tiny minority that don't give a damn about anything else but "doing their thing", and unfortunately they somehow manage to make a hell of an impact; the point above Tom raises about the lakes is an excellent example.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."

Snow_Knot
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Cyclopath
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PostSun Sep 11, 2016 5:40 pm 
NacMacFeegle wrote:
Harvey Manning used to call it "multiple abuse" policy
This is the point where I stopped reading (Nac's posts). I'm not a gun owner. I've seen a few target shooting areas (one on the way to the Glacier View trail by Rainier) and they're all trashed. I'm inclined to agree. But Tom S is pretty compelling. This is public land that belongs to everybody, not just hikers who want to exclude everybody but other hikers.

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Magellan
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PostSun Sep 11, 2016 7:04 pm 
Ringangleclaw wrote:
Missuse of shooting areas has led to the shooting closures of the I-90 corridor and USFS Rd 60 (the Mount Persis Rd, if I have the number correct),
In the case of Persis, the 'misuse' was shooting towards guys running logging equipment. Just making sure people know why.

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NacMacFeegle
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PostSun Sep 11, 2016 7:27 pm 
Tom_Sjolseth wrote:
It is very simple and worth repeating. Shooters pay taxes on the land as do you.
Paying taxes doesn't give anyone the write to do whatever they want on public land without regard to the safety and experience of other users as well as the environment. Also, banning a dangerous/annoying/destructive toy or activity does NOT exclude the owners of said toy/participants in said activity - they can enjoy public land in a way that is respectful to others and to the environment. That seems to be the fact that all misguided pro-multi-abuse "white knights" seem to ignore or dismiss.

Read my hiking related stories and more at http://illuminationsfromtheattic.blogspot.com/
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NacMacFeegle
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PostSun Sep 11, 2016 7:39 pm 
From the MULTIPLE-USE SUSTAINED-YIELD ACT OF 1960
Quote:
(a) ‘‘Multiple use’’ means: The management of all the various renewable surface resources of the national forests so that they are utilized in the combination that will best meet the needs of the American people; making the most judicious use of the land for some or all of these resources or related services over areas large enough to provide sufficient latitude for periodic adjustments in use to conform to changing needs and conditions; that some land will be used for less than all of the resources; and harmonious and coordinated management of the various resources, each with the other, without impairment of the productivity of the land, with consideration being given to the relative values of the various resources, and not necessarily the combination of uses that will give the greatest dollar return or the greatest unit output. (b) ‘‘Sustained yield of the several products and services’’ means the achievement and maintenance in perpetuity of a highlevel annual or regular periodic output of the various renewable resources of the national forests without impairment of the productivity of the land.
Nowhere does it say that people are allowed to do whatever they want on public land - instead this act says that National Forests should be maintained in a sustainable way and that they should be used for purposes other than mere resource extraction. The fact that National Forests are intended for multiple uses has little to nothing to do with whether or not any particular device or activity is allowed in the National Forests.

Read my hiking related stories and more at http://illuminationsfromtheattic.blogspot.com/
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snoqpass
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PostSun Sep 11, 2016 7:50 pm 
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NacMacFeegle
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PostSun Sep 11, 2016 7:51 pm 
Read my hiking related stories and more at http://illuminationsfromtheattic.blogspot.com/
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IanB
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PostSun Sep 11, 2016 8:08 pm 
So, while on ONF lands, I've had to listen to gunfire on many occasions, sometimes wondering if I was going to find that my vehicle had been the impromptu target when I got back to the trailhead. One incident involved enduring prolonged shooting from across a drainage in my general direction. My girlfriend and I were doing some snowshoeing, and simply wanted to find an untracked stretch of logging road to explore so we ended up on the north side of the Dosewallips. While several miles in, after the road we were on had doubled back on the opposite side of the valley, we had to put up with over an hour worth of rifle fire with no recourse but to hope that our higher elevation from the shooter would keep us out of harms way. By the time that we had made it back down to where the shooting had taken place, whoever firing had left, leaving the road littered with spent casings and several tree trunks (that had been in our direction) chewed up at eye level. Mind you, this person had driven about a mile past where my truck had been parked, and had been able to see our shoe tracks leading up beyond where he had stopped with his burlier-treaded tires. In other words, well aware that the valley was occupied. But to read many of the posts here, this situation is just fine by many of you? "Target shooting" at tree trunks, with no real idea whether any stray rounds might have been traveling towards other people? Your advice seems to be that had the shooter still been present when we arrived, that it would have been a good idea to confront him and tell him that I believed he was exercising poor judgement? Really!? Or that I'm supposed to go to the Jefferson county sheriff and report that someone inconsiderate had been shooting in an unsafe manner in the national forest, and littering too? Really!?!? It may be multiple use, and a law that I'll have precious little chance of ever getting changed, but it amazes me how so many hikers on this site jump to defend the "rights" of friggin' morons to participate in a potentially lethal activity in any manner they see fit. It may be public land, but my use doesn't leave everyone else in the vicinity with rattled nerves at best, and at the tragic worst, the potential for bloody holes in them!

"Forget gaining a little knowledge about a lot and strive to learn a lot about a little." - Harvey Manning
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Snowbrushy
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PostSun Sep 11, 2016 8:22 pm 
You must call 911 (sheriff) if you want this illegal activity to stop. http://www.fs.fed.us/visit/know-before-you-go/shooting

Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
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Randito
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PostSun Sep 11, 2016 8:35 pm 
NacMacFeegle wrote:
That's a regional policy, not a law.
Just as the policy of not allowing mountain bikes is wilderness areas is a policy decision, not something spelled out in the law that Congress passed. Since the secretary of agriculture makes policy to implement the law and there is HUUUGE support for hunting and target shooting politically it's delusion to think that banning such usage would be possible or even desirable. The biggest risk I see these days to public lands are efforts to privatize public lands and to guard against that we need all outdoor enthusiasts to stand together against those that seek to mine, log and subdivide what are now protected public lands.

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PostSun Sep 11, 2016 8:49 pm 
Nac: It's actually kind of amusing that you'd cite the Multiple Use Sustained Yield Act of 1960, when the intent of the bill was to insure that NFS lands were "administered for outdoor recreation, range, timber, watershed, and wildlife and fish purposes" and that no specific use could predominate and that a high level of annual output should be maintained without impairment of the productivity of the land. There is no language in the bill that restricts or prohibits any particular activity; that's stuff that's regulated by NFS. Hunting and shooting have always been allowed on NFS lands, except in areas that have been designated "no shooting areas" (such as mentioned above along the I-90 corridor.) Ian: I don't see anybody here defending anybody engaged "in a potentially lethal activity in any manner they see fit." There are common sense rules and specific regulations concerning shooting on public lands. I can empathize with your concerns, having been in similar situations on more than one occasion, one noted in one of my trip reports, and a couple instances up at the cabin on the Nisqually (noted previously in this thread.) The shooter you mentioned above was engaged in a reckless and illegal activity: it's not okay to shoot trees on federal lands or to shoot over any body of water (anywhere.) Nobody said to confront a person carrying a weapon in the forest. What I said above, and what Snowbrushy said just above, is that you should contact the local County Sheriff's office and file a report. Get a plate number, vehicle description, location, and time. Don't fiddle around trying to contact an NFS District Ranger Office; they don't have enough LEOs on the ground to act. Call the County Sheriff's Office. I don't know anybody, and I haven't seen anybody here saying that it's okay to be shooting trees, television sets, or leaving trash and brass casings all over the ground. That's knucklehead stuff, and it's the kind of stuff that gives all shooters and hunters a bad name. (Talk to Dave Workman about it some time - he'll give you an earful about it. Those kinds of yahoos are not well received by the shooting/hunting user constituency.) So yeah: call the Sheriff's Office, but remember they can't do anything without at least a plate number and/or vehicle description, date, place, and time; "Some guy in a red truck" isn't enough for them to work with. As I mentioned above, they will act on it; that Thurston County Sheriff was pissed off about that deal we went through up at the cabin - the problem was resolved in short order.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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xrp
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PostSun Sep 11, 2016 10:49 pm 
IanB wrote:
But to read many of the posts here, this situation is just fine by many of you? "Target shooting" at tree trunks, with no real idea whether any stray rounds might have been traveling towards other people?
No, it isn't. But there are plenty of responsible shooters who bring targets (like biodegradable clay) and police their brass or whatever leftovers. Many shooters also clean up after the litterbugs. Chase the law abiding shooters out of the NFs and the law breaking shooters will still shoot and the law abiding shooters that clean up no longer will clean up after the ruffians. FYI, I don't go shooting in NFs. Too much weight.

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Snowbrushy
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PostMon Sep 12, 2016 6:09 am 
xrp wrote:
FYI, I don't go shooting in NFs. Too much weight.
Light Savage .22 single shot youth rifle. Shorts, 50Yd. paper targets great groups great fun. http://www.fs.fed.us/visit/know-before-you-go/shooting

Oh Pilot of the storm who leaves no trace Like thoughts inside a dream Heed the path that led me to that place Yellow desert stream.
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InFlight
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PostMon Sep 12, 2016 9:34 am 
Rather than argue the right to shoot, it would seem to me the limitation of target shooting to specific designated locations that are safely away from the paths of other National Forest users is the better solution. There's a large shooting range on the way to Green Water lakes for example that seems like an ideal type setup. A large flat expanse with a backdrop would make it easy for vehicles to pickup any garbage that's left, etc. This is the same approach used for off-road vehicles usage. We can agree or disagree with others use of the National Forests; but it would be more productive and safe for all to have a planned approach rather than anything goes.

“I went to the woods because I wished to live deliberately...” ― Henry David Thoreau
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