Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > 'Environmental Nightmare' After Thousands Of Atlantic Salmon Escape Fish Farm 08/24/17
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Ski
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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 2:28 pm 
^ Thanks for the clarification.
jackchinook wrote:
And no, I don't let friends eat farmed fish!
On that note, let me add: When they have to add dye to it to make it look like salmon, and it still tastes like cardboard, why would you want farm-raised Atlantic Salmon when Northern Fish has tasty wild salmon every day of the week? Two nights ago I got wild Alaska sockeye fillet for $9.99 a pound. Last week it was wild Alaska coho fillet for $9.99 a pound. The week before that it was wild Alaska sockeye fillet for $9.99 a pound. (Prices vary sometimes from day to day, of course... I just called over there and the sockeye is $11.49 a pound today.) But even at $11.49 a pound, why buy artificially-colored, no-taste cardboard farm-raised Atlantic salmon? gag.gif

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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mike
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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 7:00 pm 
the most immediate problem is ~300k atlantic salmon competing with our few native fish for a limited food source

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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 7:09 pm 
^ True, that is the immediate problem. In the larger picture, a much greater problem is the fact that all of our native anadromous salmonids are competing for a food source which is being extracted out of the Pacific Ocean at an unsustainable rate to provide the raw material to make food pellets for fish farms and shrimp farms world wide; one of many reasons why runs of Northwest anadromous salmonids continue to decline on the Olympic Peninsula year after year. Those food fish stocks are becoming increasingly limited each year. WDFW effectively declared open season on all of the Atlantic Salmon that got loose with their announcement the other day. It remains to be seen what level of efficacy that tactic will have.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 7:32 pm 
It will be interesting to see what the actual ecological effects of this screw up are over the next several years. Many folks of the "friends don't let friends eat farmed fish" philosophy seem to hyperventilate a bit on the risks of fish farms. Given the demand for consuming salmon (and it's Omega 3 oils) meeting that demand solely with wild caught fish seems more likely to threaten the wild runs. Look what happened to the American Bison when "hunting for meat" was the method for supplying the demand.

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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 8:11 pm 
Huh?!?! I don't think it's "hyperventilating" at all, Randy. Maybe you need to do a little more research on the subject. The trawlers working the Pacific Ocean are from different countries: Spain, Indonesia, South Korea, etc., etc., etc.. They're laying out nets that are miles in length. Everything that ends up in the net dies, whether that is a targeted species or otherwise: sharks, sea turtles, porpoises, whales, whatever. The targeted food fish species go into the hold, are processed, and made into little pellets that are used to feed those Atlantic Salmon in those huge pens, as well as the (tasteless) shrimp that's being farmed in southeast Asia, and lately the (God-awful) Tilapia being farm raised here. This is being done on a scale that is simply not sustainable. The oceans cannot replenish the supply of the little food fish as fast as they're being taken out. There's nothing complicated about this - think early 1980's timber harvesting in the Pacific Northwest - same kind of deal - on a one-way course to a train wreck. In the meantime, our own native anadromous runs are competing with commercial trawlers for those same food fish in the North Pacific. As I mentioned above, it's one of the many reasons for the declines in native anadromous runs here. The increasing demand for salmon doesn't justify wiping out the resource that supports it, any more than the increasing demand for almonds in China justifies tapping the aquifers in California to a point where the ground is sinking. This is madness, and it is not sustainable. The peons who work those shrimp farms in southeast Asia are the same peons who worked the rice paddies in southeast Asia before those rice paddies were converted into shrimp farms. The operators of the shrimp farms are making way more money now. The peons they've got on the payroll are not making more money. They're still working for the same peon wages. When you start converting all the rice paddies over to shrimp farms, guess what happens? There's less rice produced locally, and the price of rice goes up. End result: the peon who's now working the shrimp farm can't afford to buy rice now. The whole "aquaculture" thing is a sham, Randy. It caters to those who can afford to buy the end product - everybody else (and the fish) are taking it up the yazoo. There are all kinds of documentary films that have been made about this. I find it troubling that so many people are so uninformed about it. * Friends don't let friends eat farm-raised fish. Or shrimp.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 8:17 pm 
RandyHiker wrote:
Look what happened to the American Bison when "hunting for meat" was the method for supplying the demand.
Completely separate issue, but since you brought it up: The American Plains Indians developed a civilization and a culture entirely around the American Bison over the course of millennia. It provided all of their needs, from meat to hides to the backstraps used to construct their bows; they utilized every part of the animal. Realizing that a military campaign would be costly and protracted, the order went out from Washington DC to eliminate the Bison, which would cause the Plains tribes to acquiesce to their demands to be relocated to reservations. The American Bison was deliberately and systematically wiped out under the auspices of the United States federal government to subjugate and control the native population. You can thank General William Tecumseh Sherman for seeing the task accomplished.

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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 8:34 pm 
Randy: annnnnnddddd, one more point on the fish-farming thing: Ever own an aquarium? Ever know anybody who owned an aquarium? You feed the fish in the fish tank - sprinkle a little bit in on the top of the water - and the fish dart about and nibble a bit here and nibble a bit there - and a whole mess of it settles down to the bottom of the aquarium and starts to decompose. If you've got little catfish and snails in there they'll suck up some of it, but a good portion of it simply decomposes and settles down into the gravel in the bottom of the aquarium. If you don't drain the aquarium and clean it all out on a regular basis, it turns into a cesspool with all the fish poop and rotting fish food down at the bottom. Fish farms are no different. They feed those fish massive quantities of those fish pellets, a good portion of which settles down to the bottom (along with tons and tons of fish poop), and you turn tidal offshore waters into cesspools. The amount of waste is obscene. So people can go to Safeway and buy low-budget, artificially-colored, tastes-like-cardboard farm-raised Atlantic Salmon. Think about it next time you go to the fish market. wink.gif

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 8:35 pm 
Well then the best approach is "Don't eat fish" since it is the demand for fish of all sorts that drives both the "sea mining" operations and the fish farming operations. You might also want to consider the environmental impact of eating farm raised chicken, beef and pork. If you are serious about reducing your environmental impact-- go vegan.

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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 9:58 pm 
"You are what you eat" extends to commercial food production. Salmon fed only one foodstuff, the previously mentioned pellets, eventually taste like those pellets. Same goes for chicken and pork that essentially only get corn to eat. I don't eat much beef so I can't speak for it but it's pretty obvious why condiment sales are at all time highs; our food supply tastes like crap. Unless you make the right choices. wink.gif

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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 10:37 pm 
The scary food of the United States is...scary.

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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 11:04 pm 
RandyHiker wrote:
Well then the best approach is "Don't eat fish" since it is the demand for fish of all sorts that drives both the "sea mining" operations and the fish farming operations. You might also want to consider the environmental impact of eating farm raised chicken, beef and pork. If you are serious about reducing your environmental impact-- go vegan.
Well... I'll have to respectfully disagree with you there, because those guys pulling those salmon in onto boats or out of nets up in Alaska do have a sustainable resource, and market demand for their product means less market demand for farm-raised product. I can't save the whole planet, Randy. Chickens, cows, and pigs are not high on my list of concerns. Like trestle, I don't really eat that much beef, because I don't trust the beef industry and I think their methods of force-feeding cows corn and antibiotics on feedlots is "Frankencow" stuff. I would never consider going "vegan". It would mean no more raw oysters, no more sashimi, no more ahi, or any of those other tasty little animals I enjoy for dinner. And every now and then there's just nothing quite like dining on seared parts of dead animal limbs. wink.gif

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 11:23 pm 
Ski wrote:
Well... I'll have to respectfully disagree with you there, because those guys pulling those salmon in onto boats or out of nets up in Alaska do have a sustainable resource,
Whether Alaskan salmon fisheries are sustainable is questionable: https://www.google.com/amp/s/craigmedred.news/2017/05/10/copper-river-disaster/amp/#ampshare=https://craigmedred.news/2017/05/10/copper-river-disaster/

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PostFri Aug 25, 2017 11:46 pm 
Building on Ski's comments about aquariums, the metaphor must be carried further. These are not rainbow trout raised in isolated ponds at springs on the Snake River plain in S. Idaho. Atlantic salmon are raised in pens, only separated from the open salt by a mesh fence. Wild salmon swim immediately adjacent to the fence. If I am blasÚ about the acute effects of the release it is because I think it likely that the chronic effects of normal operations are worse.

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PostSat Aug 26, 2017 12:03 am 
RandyHiker wrote:
Whether Alaskan salmon fisheries are sustainable is questionable:
Randy, maybe I'm misunderstanding something there, but it looks to me from that article that the problem is more about the State of Alaska's ineptitude and inability to properly manage its fisheries. Note there's a statement in the article about "the fish are smaller" and the runs are not what they used to be. That's true all up and down the west coast - that's not just an Alaska thing. Again, there are a number of different "reasons" for that, some of which are beyond our ability to control. The issues that we can control are overharvesting of the resource, proper management of the resource, and doing something about the stupidly-designed hydroelectric dams on west coast rivers. And FTR: I don't buy Copper River salmon for a couple reasons: too much hype, too expensive. There are other options available.

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PostSat Aug 26, 2017 7:26 am 
Alaska has the great benefit of fishing all the west coast stocks.California, Oregon, Washington. and Canada's fish all go up north to feed and grow.The Alaskans get to call that there sustainable fishery.Then Washington, Oregon, and Cali fish migrate down through Canada and They get to call that their sustainable fisheries.So called bad ocean conditions is largely how many of "our" fish get stolen up north.Sucks to be the last on the list, Cali. There is no risk of Atlantic salmon population establishing itself in our rivers.There are absolutely no documented instances of Atlantics interbreeding with Pacific stocks and much money has been spent trying to prove this true.This is pure Politics.The tribes hate the farms because it drives down the price of fish and is fresh year around.the tribes own the state and the politicians so the farms are now evil.I wish there was as much uproar when the politicians of king county and the state let millions of gallons of raw sewage flow into our waters.The biggest danger coming from these farms is the chance of disease. These Atlantics love to swim up our rivers and it will be interesting if the WDFW opens river to the north that contains ESA listed fish.Unfortunately, the most harm is going to be done by the effort to remove the escaped fish by charter, private and tribal fishing.They are going to hook more wild fish than farm fish.The wild fish must be released and not all survive.We are going to kill more wild fish in the effort to protect the wild fish.when it is all done the tribes and the state are going to push native stocks closer to extinction and blame it on the fish farms. Farm fish are nasty tasting and have a texture similar to jello in my humble opinion.Knowing that our chinook and Steelhead are ESA listed and that the rest of our Native stocks are knocking on the door of being listed I will not eat wild fish. Unfortunately the people of Washington have no clue how dire the "native " populations of salmon are and it has everything to do with government and the tribes, not fish farms.

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