Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > 'Environmental Nightmare' After Thousands Of Atlantic Salmon Escape Fish Farm 08/24/17
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Logbear
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PostWed Dec 07, 2022 12:12 pm 
I spent the other night reading this thread. There is a lot of information in here. This link focuses on how they feed the farmed fish. https://news.mongabay.com/2022/10/fish-feed-industry-turns-to-krill-with-unknown-effects-on-the-antarctic-ecosystem/ Then there is the fecal matter pollution problem. And diseases. Escapement.. This is starting to sound like cattle farming. We're depleting aquifers to grow hay to feed cows. Fecal matter...Disease.. At least when a cow escapes, they're easier to round up. Not so easy when 1,000's of fish escape. There was another article somewhere that talked about how some fish farms have moved inland. Isolated from natural waters. But the amount of water needed, food for the fish, and the resulting pollution are still a problem.

Genesis 1:24 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
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Logbear
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PostWed Dec 07, 2022 12:28 pm 
Ski wrote:
Remove the useless and unnecessary hydroelectric dams on the Snake/Columbia watershed
The Klamath dams might finally be on their way out. Other dam removals have been very successful. https://www.americanrivers.org/2022/11/five-key-lessons-as-worlds-biggest-dam-removal-project-will-soon-begin-on-the-klamath-river/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1_2dpano-wIV5CutBh3imAa9EAAYAiAAEgJO2vD_BwE https://www.americanrivers.org/2022/02/new-report-alert-free-rivers-the-state-of-dam-removal-in-the-u-s/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_9XLk6vo-wIVuQqtBh1hbwONEAAYAyAAEgI1XfD_BwE
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As is usually the case with dam removals, the dams will come down faster than the process to get to removal.
We can only hope the Snake/Columbia dams get removed before it's too late

Genesis 1:24 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
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PostWed Dec 07, 2022 1:40 pm 
wild coho filet with steamed asparagus and cranberry sauce 12/06/22
wild coho filet with steamed asparagus and cranberry sauce 12/06/22
Wild fish doesn't taste like cardboard. wink.gif Farmed fish and other forms of "Aquaculture" do not go into my mouth. YMMV

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostThu Dec 08, 2022 4:43 am 
yeah... wild fish is way mo' betta.... up.gif
wild sockeye filet with broccoli
wild sockeye filet with broccoli
farm-raised might make good catfood, though. maybe fertilizer?

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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altasnob
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PostThu Dec 08, 2022 7:48 am 
Ski wrote:
Farmed fish and other forms of "Aquaculture" do not go into my mouth.
Do you ever eat salmon at a sushi restaurant? It will almost always be farmed salmon unless it specifically says wild. Is eating wild salmon sustainable long term? Alaska fisheries claims their salmon fishery is sustainable in perpetuity, but I am not sure I believe it. Salmon has been over fished out of existence basically everywhere else on Earth.

Anne Elk
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PostThu Dec 08, 2022 8:07 am 
I haven't been in a sushi bar in years. I probably would not order that type of sushi anyway. I prefer yellowtail, actually. And the one with the little raw quail egg and salmon roe.... not sure what that one's called. Is wild fish sustainable? Sure, if we kill the "aquaculture" industry, we might have a chance of saving the wild fish. Unfortunately, the small food fishes are being mined out of the North Pacific ocean by trawlers faster than nature is able to replenish them. Those small food fishes are processed into "fish pellets", which is what is used to feed the "farmed fish" you buy at the supermarket. Ergo: the claim that the "Aquaculture" industry is "sustainable" is THE BIG LIE that the "Aquaculture" industry doesn't want you do know about. They don't want you do know that what they are doing is ultimately going to wipe out almost every form of wild marine life, because those trawlers are rather indiscriminate: they drag up porpoise, sea lion, dolphin, shark, tortoise, and any number of other species all of which are classified as "by catch" and immediately tossed overboard for the seagulls or to land on the ocean floor and rot. There are dozens and dozens and dozens of videos on YouTube that go into great detail and present fact with empirical evidence. They say that part of the reason the South Puget Sound Orcas are dying off is because they do not have enough wild salmon to eat. I seem to recall a now-retired fisheries biologist at Olympic National Park telling me over the phone one day that one of the causes of the declines in our west-coast anadromous runs was an increasing shortage of food fishes. That conversation took place in the summer of 1988. ** edit: forgot to mention: a huge portion of those "fish pellets" are not consumed by the fish in the net pens. A huge amount sink to the bottom, where they decompose into a mass of ooze that fouls the waters. That was one of the issues argued by that "Wild Fish Conservancy" group. I don't think anyone is going to agree that dumping thousands of tons of ground-up dead fish into Puget Sound is a good thing.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."

Anne Elk
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PostThu Dec 08, 2022 8:23 am 
Can't recall exactly where it was.... might have been the "Science Center" at the Seattle Center.... .... they built a scale model of Puget Sound - on a large table - maybe 8 feet wide by 20 feet long. big. like a map, but three-dimensional.... with real water in it. at the mouth of each major river was a tiny spigot which squirted a bit of water into Puget Sound.... the spigot at the Nisqually Reach had blue dye in it, which colored the water.... the drain for this set-up was where Cape Flattery is.....they had it set up so the water actually moved back and forth to imitate tidal action... they had to have done it with some kind of fancy-schmanty aquarium-pump-and-filter system..... the intent of the display was to demonstrate how long it took for a drop of water entering at the very bottom end of Puget Sound to get up to Cape Flattery.... ... they figured it to be about seven years. We've been using Puget Sound for a toilet since 1852.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."

Anne Elk
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altasnob
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PostThu Dec 08, 2022 8:36 am 
Ski wrote:
Is wild fish sustainable? Sure, if we kill the "aquaculture" industry, we might have a chance of saving the wild fish.
Aquaculture is now non-existent in Washington. Aquaculture was never allowed in Oregon and California. Prior to European settlement, the rivers of Washington, Oregon, and California were as prolific salmon producers as any place on Earth. Now, salmon are nearly extinct from these states. Aquaculture may have a negative impact on wild fisheries. But we have already gotten rid of (or never had) aquaculture in Washington, Oregon, and California and yet their respective salmon populations is a small fraction of what it once was. Dams, agriculture, and huge populations living near, and polluting water sheds plays a bigger role in the decline of salmon than aquaculture.

Anne Elk
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PostThu Dec 08, 2022 8:42 am 
^ There is no argument from me on those points, altasnob. "Aquaculture" is but one of many issues which threaten wild fish. The biggest single contributing factor was the construction of hydroelectric dams that were built without provisions for fish passage. The reason that the Norwegians invented the "Aquaculture" industry was because they managed to pretty much wipe out all of their native anadromous runs with hydroelectric dams. But yes, there is a litany of other "reasons": industrial, commercial, and residential development on or near riparian zones; industrial, commercial, and residential run-off of chemicals and other contaminants; rising water tempertures in the North Pacific (which is what killed off all the crabs this season); on and on and on. Of those, there are only a few things that we, as humans, have any control over. The bottom line is that "Aquaculture" is not - by any stretch of the imagination - "helping" to make the situation better. Rather, it is doing the opposite.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostThu Dec 08, 2022 9:05 am 
Ski wrote:
Can't recall exactly where it was.... might have been the "Science Center" at the Seattle Center.... .... they built a scale model of Puget Sound - on a large table - maybe 8 feet wide by 20 feet long. big. like a map, but three-dimensional.... with real water in it. at the mouth of each major river was a tiny spigot which squirted a bit of water into Puget Sound.... the spigot at the Nisqually Reach had blue dye in it, which colored the water.... the drain for this set-up was where Cape Flattery is.....they had it set up so the water actually moved back and forth to imitate tidal action... they had to have done it with some kind of fancy-schmanty aquarium-pump-and-filter system..... the intent of the display was to demonstrate how long it took for a drop of water entering at the very bottom end of Puget Sound to get up to Cape Flattery.... ... they figured it to be about seven years. We've been using Puget Sound for a toilet since 1852.
Your recollection is correct. Pacific Science Center. I thought that display was amazing when I was 10. One of the reasons it takes so long to turn over the water in the Sound is a relatively shallow sill beneath Admiralty Inlet. It is (I recall) only about 120 feet deep below the Port Townsend ferry run which is why the tides mess with that schedule so much. An excellent book on this is The Shape and Form of Puget Sound by Robert Burns. We now return to our regularly scheduled broadcast...

"Forget gaining a little knowledge about a lot and strive to learn a lot about a little." - Harvey Manning
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PostThu Dec 08, 2022 4:53 pm 
^ This is a huge part of the problem for Puget Sound Orcas. Somewhere on this site you will find my description of: the blob the blob the blob .... no fewer than three times now! And each description is different! lol.gif (You may recall BigSteve talking about "eyewitness testimony" - my own statements prove his to be true. wink.gif ) In any event - it was a massive bunch of yuck, and it's probably still there, drifting back and forth with the tide. Like you, Ian, I was absolutely fascinated by that display and could have spent an entire day just watching it, but the small children accompanying me weren't having it. And this isn't really "off topic" when the conversation shifts to "what happened to the fish?" Yeah, the topic is "Aquaculture", but as altasnob points out, it is but ONE "reason" for the decline in anadromous returns. But... it is ONE thing we (as humans) can DO something about. If we are serious about protecting what little remains of these stocks, then we need to address those problems that we can do something about, and push to get that done. Think: dams. The Columbia-Snake watershed, when Lewis & Clark first saw it, was capable of supporting populations of thousands of Native Americans for millennia. My second, third, and fourth grade teacher, Miss Martha Douglas*, was raised on the Lummi Indian Reservation. We were taught by Miss Douglas not only how to do the chants and use the "Lummi Sticks"**, we learned all about Northwest Native American culture, history, and food. One of the things that I always found striking was that unlike most other North American Native tribes, those in the Northwest weren't all that often at war with each other - they had ample supplies of food, so other than minor territorial disputes or "blood feud" stuff, things around here were just a bit more peaceful than other parts of North America. The first white men who sailed into Elliott bay reportedly claimed that one could "walk across the water on the backs of the salmon." I started crying when I got that last email from ONP about the sportfishing closure on the coastal rivers a couple weeks ago. (* Another girl in my class, who lived right down the street from me, and I were the subjects of Miss Douglas' Masters Thesis, which she completed a couple years after the two of us graduated from Mt. Tahoma. Neither of us, or our parents, were aware of what was going on at the time. We were rather puzzled that we were the only two, out of hundreds of students, who were in the same class with the same teacher for three years in a row. The other student - the girl - told me about it at our 10-year high school reunion. Apparently she had been in contact with Miss Douglas after graduation. -BK) (** I will take the liberty of noting, after watching that YouTube video, that my "Lummi Stick" partner, Joyce Green and I, were far more adept than what you are seeing in that video, moved at almost twice the speed (maybe they're doing it in slow motion for the teaching part) and we were singing at the same time. In third grade. I made my Lummi Sticks out of an old broom handle - cut the pieces about a foot long - make sure they're the same length and sand off the splinters and sharp edges, especially if they are being used by small hands. - BK)
Chinooks Smith Place Queets Sep 28 2003
Chinooks Smith Place Queets Sep 28 2003

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostThu Dec 08, 2022 5:09 pm 
make that FOUR TIMES

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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sooperfly
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PostThu Dec 08, 2022 5:44 pm 
By your statement do you mean aquaculture in general or just in the Puget Sound area? Because Pacific Aquaculture has been and is currently operating net pens on the Columbia River. While they are above Chief Joseph Dam on Lake Rufus Woods, there are still effects they can have on salmon and steelhead downstream.
altasnob wrote:
Ski wrote:
Is wild fish sustainable? Sure, if we kill the "aquaculture" industry, we might have a chance of saving the wild fish.
Aquaculture is now non-existent in Washington. Aquaculture was never allowed in Oregon and California. Prior to European settlement, the rivers of Washington, Oregon, and California were as prolific salmon producers as any place on Earth. Now, salmon are nearly extinct from these states. Aquaculture may have a negative impact on wild fisheries. But we have already gotten rid of (or never had) aquaculture in Washington, Oregon, and California and yet their respective salmon populations is a small fraction of what it once was. Dams, agriculture, and huge populations living near, and polluting water sheds plays a bigger role in the decline of salmon than aquaculture.

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PostFri Dec 09, 2022 8:20 pm 
^ I mean any and all "aquaculture", for the reasons I stated above concerning the mining of the small food fishes out of our oceans - particularly the Pacific - by commercial trawlers. They are harvesting the stocks out of the oceans at a rate much faster than they can be replenished by nature. The short-term consequences of this have been that the overall sizes of line-caught tuna off the north shore of Papua New Guinea have steadily decreased over the last few decades. The old men tell stories of catching big fish that they no longer see in the current era. There's not enough food for them. Additionally, the trawlers, as I mentioned above, are senselessly exterminating the "by catch" - it's all wasted. Some of that wasted by-catch is sea tortoise, shark, porpoise, and other aquatic animals that we really should not be killing unnecessarily, particularly when when it's all wasted. The entire set-up is completely insane. This is madness on a grand scale. When you start delving into what's going on with commercial shrimp farming in southeast Asia, it gets really ugly. If it's not wild, it is not going into my mouth.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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sooperfly
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PostFri Dec 09, 2022 8:38 pm 
Sorry Ski, I didn't clearly quote what I meant to! My question was directed to Altasnob who commented that "Aquaculture is now non-existent in Washington". While that's definitively incorrect, I was wondering if he meant aquaculture in salt water areas of Washington.

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Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > 'Environmental Nightmare' After Thousands Of Atlantic Salmon Escape Fish Farm 08/24/17
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