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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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 Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:51 pm |
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| Brian R wrote: | | Stefan wrote: | | I feel sorry for those who kick down cairns in off trail routes. |
Me too. I suspect kicking over a cairn is along the spectrum toward kicking puppies and burning down trail shelters. Who the heck does this? |
Hmmmm ... what is it about "off trail" that is so difficult to fathom?
We've condemned red lines on maps, sharing GPS data, tagging photos on social media, Instagram in general, detailed trip reports on secret places, etc. Heck, some have even decried guidebooks. But people going out and marking up the landscape of supposedly off trail routes is OK. And anyone who undoes this landscape marking is somehow akin to "kicking puppies".
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Chief Joseph
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Joined: 10 Nov 2007
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| Stefan wrote: | | I feel sorry for those who kick down cairns in off trail routes.
You never know when a lost soul who makes a mistake finds their way into a high route or some place off the beaten path. Or a place like in Utah backcountry areas. The cairn could be an indicator for this lost person to make it back to civilization without having to contact the authorities from their concerned family/friends...or run into further trouble by being "off route."
Sad. |
I agree completely, I don't get the over the top loathing of some for cairns..... now arrows painted to mark the route? Hell to the No!
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Mon Jun 28, 2021 8:58 pm |
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Cairns would be evil of people were making them with plastic stones.
 Chief Joseph
Chief Joseph |
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b00
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b00
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Mon Jun 28, 2021 9:27 pm |
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| Bootpathguy wrote: | | what they were intended for. If you depend on cairns for navigation, you're a fool.
Everyone trying to add their little artsy sculpture signature to the landscape and has nothing to do with route marking. They'll lure you off route, or get you lost, just as often as they keep you on the path.
All they tell us now is, "someone was here"
I could care less if someone wants to build one. Doesn't really visually bother me. But, I do kick them over when I pass by |
is it possible cairns are a metaphor for people's ideas?
is it ok to kick over someone else's idea because you disagree with them?
are there not better ways to convey your opinion, without harming/knocking down someone else?
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:38 pm |
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| b00 wrote: | | is it possible cairns are a metaphor for people's ideas?
is it ok to kick over someone else's idea because you disagree with them?
are there not better ways to convey your opinion, without harming/knocking down someone else? |
One might also ask if maybe we should all be more circumspect about building needless cairns ... metaphorically speaking.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Brian R
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Brian R
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Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:39 pm |
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| RumiDude wrote: | | But people going out and marking up the landscape of supposedly off trail routes is OK.[?] |
Neon flagging, yes--but gathering and stacking stones into a cairn is hardly 'making up the landscape.'
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Brian R
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Brian R
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Mon Jun 28, 2021 10:43 pm |
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And since we're talking metaphors, couldn't one say building a cairn is akin to taking a stand against entropy? An infinitely small expression of rage against the temporal night! 
Anne Elk, Chief Joseph
Anne Elk, Chief Joseph |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:06 pm |
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| Brian R wrote: | | RumiDude wrote: | | But people going out and marking up the landscape of supposedly off trail routes is OK.[?] |
Neon flagging, yes--but gathering and stacking stones into a cairn is hardly 'making up the landscape.' |
That's a quite revealing distinction you attempt to make there. So you are ok with people removing neon flagging tape but not kicking over a cairn, am I correct?
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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Brian R
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Brian R
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Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:16 pm |
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| RumiDude wrote: | | So you are ok with people removing neon flagging tape but not kicking over a cairn, am I correct? |
Yes. Not sure why that's such a difficult distinction for you.
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:27 pm |
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| Brian R wrote: | | RumiDude wrote: | | So you are ok with people removing neon flagging tape but not kicking over a cairn, am I correct? |
Yes. Not sure why that's such a difficult distinction for you. |
I know the difference between neon flagging tape (any color flagging tape for that matter) and a cairn. But unless I missed something you have not explained why you make a distinction between the two as far as cairn are OK but flagging tape is not. And to be clear, I don't make much distinction between the two as far as marking what is supposed to be an off trail route. I don't like either and though I rarely take the time to remove either, I don't fault anyone who does.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
seawallrunner
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
seawallrunner
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Brian R
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Brian R
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Mon Jun 28, 2021 11:51 pm |
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One is neon plastic, carried into the wilds and left behind as litter. The other is nothing more than an arrangement of indigenous stones. To be clear, I have yet to see a cairn made of bricks, or, say, ornamental cinder blocks. If I ever do, then I might better understand your complaint.
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:01 am |
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Cairns are an art walk produced from locally sourced materials and giving meaning to the lives of both the artists who build them and the curmudgeons who topple them.   It has been said that some hikers build cairns for the sole purpose of giving others something to kick over. If you ever see one that looks especially satisfying, take a moment to thank the artist who made it for you.
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
Joined: 26 Jul 2009
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Location: Port Angeles |
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RumiDude
Marmota olympus
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Tue Jun 29, 2021 12:48 am |
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| Brian R wrote: | | One is neon plastic, carried into the wilds and left behind as litter. The other is nothing more than an arrangement of indigenous stones. To be clear, I have yet to see a cairn made of bricks, or, say, ornamental cinder blocks. If I ever do, then I might better understand your complaint. |
My complaint is not about the materials so you don't understand my objection to either of them. I have two main objections to cairns and a third minor one.
My first main objection is their use to mark what is supposed to be an off trail route. If it is not a trail, then it shouldn't have markers, regardless of what the markers are made of. Markers tend to concentrate any traffic and then the next thing that happens a bootpath forms which only serves to further concentrate travelers. If one is traveling off trail, then let that person navigate their own route rather than cairn builders and flaggers trying to show them where they should walk.Let the off trail route remain just that, a route that is off the trail and not a bootpath.
My second main objection to cairns and other off trail markers is just what the OP indicated with his statement: "They'll lure you off route, or get you lost, just as often as they keep you on the path." Who even knows if the person that left the marker even knew what they were doing. There is no way for anyone following the cairns or other markers to know to follow it or not.
My minor ding against cairns, relative to my major objections, is that cairns beget cairns. In other words people see a cairn and then think that they should be putting them up as well. And as the generations of cairns go, the cairns become more and more elaborate. And that is exactly not what I want to see whenever I am going off trail, a garden of cairns.
And so, doesn't bother me if someone kicks the cairns over. I have done it infrequently. It has been 20+ years since I read Freedom Of The Hills. If my memory serves me correctly, the author(s) suggest that cairns should only be constrcted by a person as a quick way to find their way back and that they should always kick them over on their return. That's the LNT principles at work. It's also the way I feel.
Rumi
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
ForbinsAscent, Bedivere, Brian Curtis, Tom
"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
ForbinsAscent, Bedivere, Brian Curtis, Tom
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texasbb
Misplaced Texan
Joined: 30 Mar 2009
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texasbb
Misplaced Texan
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Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:45 am |
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I agree with Rumi's three gripes and will add a fourth peeve: cairns often sully what would otherwise be a beautiful wilderness photo.
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GaliWalker
Have camera will use
Joined: 10 Dec 2007
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GaliWalker
Have camera will use
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Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:16 am |
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Some random thoughts and opinions:
- I agree with RumiDude that cairns on off-trail routes kinda defeats the purpose.
- I agree with Stefan that a cairn is helpful to a lost hiker. Not everyone has the same level of off-trail skills, and navigating in a whiteout, or in a flat forest can require better than average navigational prowess.
- Not all cairns are on off-trail routes. e.g. There are any number of official routes in the Northeast where travel is over extensive talus fields or granite slabs and the only way to mark the location of the 'trail' is with cairns, or daubs of paint.
- Unnecessary cairns bug me. However, who defines what is 'unnecessary', and under what conditions?
Sorry for arguing out of both sides of my mouth... 
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