Forum Index > Trail Talk > Air Tours Management Plan in MRNP and ONP?
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Stefan
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Stefan
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PostWed Aug 25, 2021 9:43 am 
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Anne Elk
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PostWed Aug 25, 2021 12:40 pm 
Thanks for posting this alert, Stefan.  The third link, for "responses", is problematic, though, in that the response is being coordinated by Washington Wild.  In the past, I've heard that these "canned response" campaigns, much like pre-printed NGO post cards,  are not the best way to register your opinion; ie, the recipient agency often views them collectively as a "single" response.

Unfortunately I can't find a direct contact email for the Division Chief, Karen Trevino; but there is a contact reference for emailing related to these programs, here:

https://www.nps.gov/subjects/sound/contactus.htm

as well as the snail mail address in the other links you provided.

I can't believe the NPS is considering this (or maybe I can), especially in ONP.  As if the fly-overs from the Whibey Island NAS weren't enough.   mad.gif

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Kim Brown
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Kim Brown
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PostWed Aug 25, 2021 12:48 pm 
Here's the page for your comment directly to the people who need it. This is for MRNP

https://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=323&projectID=102920&documentID=114127

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Kim Brown
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Kim Brown
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PostWed Aug 25, 2021 12:50 pm 
Comment page for ONP

https://parkplanning.nps.gov/document.cfm?parkID=329&projectID=103431&documentID=114152

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"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."

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Kim Brown
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Kim Brown
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PostWed Aug 25, 2021 12:57 pm 
QUICK review of this is that this isn't to comment whether or not you want commercial touring in the Parks. That has already been decided. Already allowed, and it appears not a lot of people even noticed.

This is to amend the agreement already in place - and the change places limitations on current levels of commercial touring.  This doesn't seem at all like what wawild is commenting about. They're actually wanting to comment against it the proposal to limitations.

Am i wrong? I just did  a quick glance at it, and maybe I don't know how to read through the benadyrl fog I'm o.


Under existing conditions, the annual number of commercial air tours at Mount Rainier National Park is limited by the IOA; however, there are no designated parameters on route, time-of-day, or altitude restrictions to further protect Park resources or visitor experience. Currently, no procedures are in place that allow the Park to establish no-fly periods for special events or planned Park management. There are currently no training or education requirements for commercial air tour operators flying over the Park. The provisions and conditions in the proposed ATMP address these parameters in a manner designed to protect Park resources and visitor experience from the effects of commercial air tours and support NPS management objectives for the Park..

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"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."

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Sore Feet
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Ski
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PostWed Aug 25, 2021 1:11 pm 
Anne Elk wrote:
I've heard that these "canned response" campaigns, much like pre-printed NGO post cards,  are not the best way to register your opinion; ie, the recipient agency often views them as a "single" response.

Per the Compliance Officer of Olympic National Park:
Multiple responses received as a result of some sort of "recruitment campaign" such as you've mentioned above are counted as one response. (Kim Brown was standing right next to me when we were told this by the ONP Compliance Officer.)

Olympic National Park
Superintendent:
Sarah_Creachbaum@nps.gov

Compliance:
Christina_Miller@nps.gov

HOWEVER: Most of the recent project proposals I've seen coming out of ONP allow citizens to submit comments only on the PEPC website.  (Planning, Environment, Public Comment)
IF that is the case, don't waste your time and energy writing letters and emails to individuals - simply submit the comment through the PEPC website.

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Anne Elk
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PostWed Aug 25, 2021 1:12 pm 
Kim, I built an assumption of potential expansion into the comments I just submitted,  and suggested that, if anything, the current permits  should be scaled back.  Seems to me that the NPs in Washington suffer the least from commercial intrusions, and it should be kept that way.  Bad enough we have to tolerate Whibey NAS operating over the ONP.  Heck of a way to raise additional revenues.

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"There are yahoos out there.  Itís why we canít have nice things."  - Tom Mahood
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Anne Elk
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PostWed Aug 25, 2021 1:18 pm 
Ski wrote:
HOWEVER: Most of the recent project proposals I've seen coming out of ONP allow citizens to submit comments only on the PEPC website.  (Planning, Environment, Public Comment)
IF that is the case, don't waste your time and energy writing letters and emails to individuals - simply submit the comment through the PEPC website.

If that's the case, Ski, it seems like the one email address in the link I provide might not apply; the one connected to "questions about air tour management and related legislation"

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"There are yahoos out there.  Itís why we canít have nice things."  - Tom Mahood
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Kim Brown
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Kim Brown
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PostWed Aug 25, 2021 1:24 pm 
Yes; comment on the official site using the comment link provided on the comment page. Those are the instructions.

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"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."

Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Ski
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PostWed Aug 25, 2021 1:58 pm 
yeah.... just a note on that....

re:
wawild wrote:
"...  or altitude restrictions ..."

I recall departing from SeaTac on a Boeing aircraft one afternoon years ago on a flight to Stapleton in Denver.
The pilot took the aircraft directly over the summit of Mt. Rainier, low enough that from the windows on the left side of the aircraft you could tell what color parkas the climbers below were wearing.

That's NOT hyperbole.

I guess if there are and have been no regulations concerning altitude, that might be something to consider commenting on.

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"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Kim Brown
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Kim Brown
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PostWed Aug 25, 2021 2:01 pm 
The mandate for a commercial flight tours of the Park is below 5,000'

I guess I should amend my "commercial flights"  to "commercial touring flights of the park."

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"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."

Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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Anne Elk
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PostWed Aug 25, 2021 2:55 pm 
I seem to remember reading/hearing back in the day that commercial flights deliberately cut a path around ONP. Or was that a fantasy I imagined?  Doubt it's the case any longer, unless they have to do so to avoid the Whidbey flyers.  frown.gif

So much for Gordon Hempton's efforts:  One Square Inch of Silence  He's like the Library of Congress for unadulterated nature sounds.   Loved his book.

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Ski
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PostWed Aug 25, 2021 4:18 pm 
No, it's not a fantasy.

If I recall correctly, it was Alaska Airlines who stepped up to the plate and said "We will route our flights around the Park," and a couple others followed suit. I may have been misinformed, but that's the way I heard it.

The noise up there isn't from commercial airliner flights, though. A commercial airliner leaving SeaTac is just a tiny silver splinter by the time it gets to the coast, and any "noise" is minimal, if at all existent.

The noise is from the military flights from Whidbey.

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"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. 
I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Kim Brown
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PostWed Aug 25, 2021 5:53 pm 
OK but the public comment period that Stefan posted about is regarding the management plan of those commercial tour flights that are allowed.

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"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area."

Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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kiliki
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kiliki
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PostWed Aug 25, 2021 6:49 pm 
We talked about this here. RodF has some good background.

https://www.nwhikers.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8034314

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