Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Summit at Snoqualmie revised uphill travel policy
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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Dec 02, 2021 9:29 am 
It appears that they are trying to limit their liability. You have to create an account to get the pass so I assume you will get spammed from then on. When you pay the money you have created a contract which could make you liable for damages in effect a EULA. I do not know what all is in that contract as I could not read it without forming an account. I am suspicious of such contracts by profession.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Randito
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PostThu Dec 02, 2021 10:17 am 
treeswarper wrote:
Snoqpas, did you find that on their websits? I failed.
https://skitheloup.com/mountain-safety/
treeswarper wrote:
I have seen a sign prohibiting use on days when the hill is closed, but since that hill is closed so much due to broken equipment, I can't see them enforcing it all the time.
In the modern era it is my belief that such closures and warning signs are less about them chasing you down and citing you for tresspassing -- but more about protecting them from you suing them if you get hurt while violating a closure. I think the chances of them chasing anyone is very small -- however you might find your vehicle impounded or perhaps be greeted on your return with a citation.

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Randito
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PostThu Dec 02, 2021 10:25 am 
Malachai Constant wrote:
. You have to create an account to get the pass so I assume you will get spammed from then on.
If spam emails are a concern -- you might try using the gmail + feature gIf your email address is bob@gmail.com -- try using the address bob+nospam@gmail.com for the email address to create your account. This make is easy to mark spam email messages from them as spam and have them routed your junk mail folder. Or since gmail addresses are free -- you could just create a new gmail address for creating the uphill pass account and then simply forget about it -- until you need next year's uphill pass.

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snoqpass
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PostThu Dec 02, 2021 11:21 am 
treeswarper wrote:
Snoqpas, did you find that on their websits? I failed. I have seen a sign prohibiting use on days when the hill is closed, but since that hill is closed so much due to broken equipment, I can't see them enforcing it all the time. I got an evil eye when I hiked past the crew just going along a road in the area. Nothing was said, and the hill was not opened yet.
Down on the bottom right hand corner of the page "Safety at the Loup

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snoqpass
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PostThu Dec 02, 2021 11:56 am 
Randito wrote:
snoqpass wrote:
I believe most of the liability would be on the skiers. The RCW is a little dated in regards to uphill traffic and the skier responsibilities it is pretty clear if you are on foot or a sliding device but not so clear if you are skinning uphill generally it's the responsibility of the uphill skier to avoid the person below them but that's more so that you don't run someone over from behind when they can't see you as opposed to a person facing and heading uphill
The issue is whether a designated route creates areas where a collision is "foreseeable" -- or more specifically whether someone could argue in court that it was. A number of years ago there was a fatality at Central in the terrain park and the ski area was successfully sued. Park of the settlement was the creation of the "park pass", the educational videos and the guy in the booth at the top checking that folks entering the terrain park had a "park pass" I'm not saying that such a lawsuit would necessarily succeed, but the disruption and costs of defending any lawsuit are considerable. If the Alpental ski patrol doesn't feel like a reasonably safe designated uphill route can be devised at Alpental, that would be reasonable argument to the USFS for a season long closure under terms of the special use permit.
That was the Salvini case, he didn't die but became a quadriplegic and was awarded $14mil, the suit focused mainly on the design of the terrain features. The "Smart style" terrain park program was something developed nationally by ski areas and the NSAA. The fatality happened about a week later which I still remember because I was in the back of the aid care doing CPR on him, I believe the parents of Peter Melrose filed a lawsuit but I can't find anything about it but I know the right people to ask I'll look into it

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Randito
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PostThu Dec 02, 2021 1:32 pm 
I guess I was thinking of the Melrose case. In any event, people getting hurt is bad all around and operating a ski area in a manner that reduces the risk of injuries and death is an important priority. Also when I think about areas like Mission Ridge -- which only use ticket checkers on their lower lifts -- I can see why the operators might want to restrict uphill travel to make it harder to poach rides on the upper lift. At Alpental there might be similar concerns about skinning up to chair two and poaching rides on the upper chair -- but I think it is mostly about reducing risks from folks skinning up while avalanche control efforts are underway. As noted earlier in this thread there was a case at Crystal where some eagar powder hounds placed themselves on a slope as ski patrol was lauching explosives. There was also an earlier case where a solo uphill skier at Crystal was found deceased and buried in avalanche debris from an avalanche that may have been triggered by a slide triggered by explosives. Anyway I think the safety case at Alpental is pretty strong. At the other Summit areas the safety case for excluding uphill travel completely isn't as compelling -- as avalanche control measures are generally not needed. There is also a lot less opportunity for poaching free rides by skinning up and skiing down to a lift that doesn't have ticket scanners. Crystal and Stevens have avoid the poaching issue by using RFID scanners on their lifts -- but I don't think Summits West,Central and East will invest in RFID gates -- given the large number of lifts.

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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostThu Dec 02, 2021 2:05 pm 
Th poaching would occur at Central and East with people skinning up to the XC area and hidden Valley. Folks have gone up the common corridor to Nordic Pass since time immortal. Ther is also a traditional blue diamond snowshoe route past Hyak Lake. The common corridor has pretty much cut off due to $120 pas sticker for grooming. Neither of these routes go on downhill runs. I cannot see any early reason why hey sould care about laps on Hyak when the area is closed WTF?

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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snoqpass
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PostThu Dec 02, 2021 3:36 pm 
Randito wrote:
an earlier case where a solo uphill skier at Crystal was found deceased and buried in avalanche debris from an avalanche that may have been triggered by a slide triggered by explosives.
She was outside the area boundary and the accident happened the day before patrollers noticed ithttp://media.nwac.us.s3.amazonaws.com/media/filer_public/b3/44/b344c9aa-6bb6-4f72-9783-c84387665d87/20170104_crystalmt_joesshoulder_fatality.pdf. The RFID at the summit wouldn't really deter people since there's only two lifts you can skin to poach, Edelweiss at Alpental and Hidden Valley at Hyak

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Randito
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PostThu Dec 02, 2021 4:50 pm 
snoqpass wrote:
The RFID at the summit wouldn't really deter people since there's only two lifts you can skin to poach, Edelweiss at Alpental and Hidden Valley at Hyak
Yep and the Rampart Chair at Hyak. Many decades ago, when I was a broke college student , we used to play a game of how many rides can you poach. Back then the Summit rarely employed ticket checkers, but depended on the lifties to check tickets. Mid-Week night skiing you could often ski much of the night, saving the exorbitant $8 night ticket fee. These days the poachable hours are much more limited -- but I wouldn't really know, since I've been buying a season's pass at the Summit every year for a long long time now.

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snoqpass
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PostThu Dec 02, 2021 6:28 pm 
we poached all day at Solitude UT many years ago, we were told don't wear neon and just act like a local then we crossed over to Brighton and skied a few runs before they checked for a ticket, "Um we were skiing at Solitude" "Where's your Solitude ticket?" "Ummm...we don't have one" "Beat it" we had to hitchhike back to Solitude and finish the day the guy loading the chair asked us how it was going, we told him about getting the boot and thumbing it back, he just laughed while loading us

Randito, fjoro
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Malachai Constant
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Malachai Constant
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PostMon Dec 06, 2021 6:33 pm 
It is much worse than I thought. I tried to register but stooped temporarily. In order to get the pass you must open an account which requires not only your email, but also credit card, address, etc. Not enthusiastic about all that. It is a great source for data mining and security seems lax. frown.gif

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
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Randito
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PostMon Dec 06, 2021 7:10 pm 
Malachai Constant wrote:
It is much worse than I thought. I tried to register but stooped temporarily. In order to get the pass you must open an account which requires not only your email, but also credit card, address, etc. Not enthusiastic about all that. It is a great source for data mining and security seems lax. frown.gif
Oh joy, more spam emails and direct mail since they are also asking for a mailing address. I signed up a while ago, but so far no pass has showed up in my mailbox. My lift pass showed up a couple weeks ago.

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Tom
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PostMon Dec 06, 2021 7:21 pm 
Just did a test sign up with a bulk email service. Wow, they required name, birthdate, email, phone, address and a photo. Then you have to initial and sign waivers, etc. Not as simple as a trail park pass. Seems like you can enter fake stuff for all (see sample profile). I guess you need to enter actual mailing address since the pass is mailed. I used wiley coyote for the photo: https://summitatsnoqualmie.com/uphill-travel-policy?keyword=UpHillPass login: blah@yopmail.com pass: BlahBlah2

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Pyrites
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PostMon Dec 06, 2021 8:17 pm 
Wiley E goes where he wants, when he wants.

Keep Calm and Carry On? Heck No. Stay Excited and Get Outside!
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Tom
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PostMon Dec 06, 2021 8:35 pm 
For fun I went to the checkout page. Didn't complete checkout but seems you can use google pay, so at least that should better safeguard your payment info. It's unclear what privacy policy policy applies to the data collected. The processor provides this link: https://www.accesso.com/privacy-policy The resort provides provides link: https://www.boyneresorts.com/privacy-policy

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