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Jumble Jowls
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PostFri Dec 03, 2021 5:55 pm 
Marco Rubio introduced a bill on March 9, 2021 to make DST year-round. It was referred to committee on the same day and has gone nowhere since. It can't get out of committee. https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/623 This isn't the first bill to do away with the very annoying practice of changing the clocks twice a year. There's some real resistance in Congress. I don't think it's because the opponents like changing clocks, especially when they lose an hour of sleep in the spring. I think it's more basic. Like the persons resisting it either: --don't like the extremely late sunset time during summer in northern latitudes, or --like the early darkness in winter because it goes better with the Christmas season, or --What do you think? Personally I don't care if they make standard or daylight savings time permanent, as long as it eliminates the clock changing. The loss of an hour in springtime really messes me up. I can't stand it. But I don't mind gaining an hour in the fall.

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Malachai Constant
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PostFri Dec 03, 2021 6:45 pm 
We are retired now so it does not make the slightest difference to us, we are on sun time.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn

Navy salad
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Randito
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PostFri Dec 03, 2021 10:10 pm 

Navy salad, Chief Joseph, flatsqwerl, moonspots
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IanB
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PostSat Dec 04, 2021 10:33 am 
Despite the tired old snark that Randy posted, it really does have a huge impact on those who work outdoors year round. Nothing is gloomier in the NW than the sun going down at 4 - that's the loss of 30 hours each winter month the could be spent productively outdoors in the evening! Even worse, in the summer, Standard Time sunset would be around 9, but sunrise would be at 3:30 in the freaking morning when it's of no use to almost anyone! I've never understood how the semi-annual shifting is such a big deal, but if we're to choose one or the other, for goodness sake, please let it be DST!

"Forget gaining a little knowledge about a lot and strive to learn a lot about a little." - Harvey Manning

hikerman
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Randito
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PostSat Dec 04, 2021 11:48 am 
There is definitely evidence that the semi-annual shift results in sleep disruptions and a cluster of accidents following each shift. Back when Ben Franklin 1st proposed DST , the cost of providing illumination was roughly 10,000 times higher than it is today, so then there was an argument for DST in terms of savings of candles and lamp oil. But now the cost of illumination is so little that no long a significant reason for maintaining the shift. I think we still have DST mainly for reasons of momentum. But Congress seems to much occupied with a combination of more important and purely political symbolic acts these days. At least us Seattlelites have the sun come up by 8 and sunset after 4. In Anchorage it doesn't get light before 10 and it still gets dark around 4. UGH

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Anne Elk
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PostSat Dec 04, 2021 8:58 pm 
The almanac on Weather Underground's website says today's official sunrise time in Seattle is 7:41 am. (Civil twilight at 7:06 am & etc). If we went to year-round daylight savings, it would be dark, or dark-ish, until close to 9 am. I can just hear the howls about kids having to go to school in the dark.
Randito wrote:
There is definitely evidence that the semi-annual shift results in sleep disruptions and a cluster of accidents following each shift.
i think it's baloney. Most Americans are sleep-deprived to begin with, seriously so. I'm with IanB - I don't see what the big deal is with the twice-yearly clock change. Can't people discipline themselves to go to bed a little earlier one day a year? Both changes are even scheduled on weekends, to make it easier on the working folk. The history of conventional time keeping and time zones is uniquely tied to industrialization, working by clock time, and especially, the need to set dependable railroad schedules. Good articles on Wikipedia about standard time, time zones, universal time (UTC) etc.

"There are yahoos out there. Itís why we canít have nice things." - Tom Mahood

hikerman, Navy salad
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Chief Joseph
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PostSat Dec 04, 2021 9:10 pm 
Anne Elk wrote:
If we went to year-round daylight savings, it would be dark, or dark-ish, until close to 9 am.
That would be perfect for me, since I rarely get out of bed until 9.

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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Randito
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PostSun Dec 05, 2021 7:02 am 
Anne Elk wrote:
I think it's baloney.
Here is the data https://www.phillypilaw.com/2021/03/15/car-accidents-daylight-saving-time/#:~:text=The%20study%20analyzed%2020%20years,the%20time%20change%20in%20November.
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According to data from the Fatality Analysis Reporting System that was published in Current Biology, DST is linked to a six percent increase in car accidents. The study analyzed 20 years of data and found that DST is responsible for around 28 deaths each year. More importantly, the study found that these accident rates often decreased after the week of DST. Additionally, there was virtually no impact during the time change in November.

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Schroder
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PostSun Dec 05, 2021 9:52 am 
Has everyone forgotten that Washington, Oregon, and California voted on permanent DST and it passed with the voters? The snag was the California legislature, which didn't pass the voter's measure. Until they do the West Coast is stuck with what we have.

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IanB
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PostSun Dec 05, 2021 10:00 am 
Randito wrote:
Anne Elk wrote:
I think it's baloney.
Here is the data
Quote:
According to data from the Fatality Analysis Reporting System that was published in Current Biology, DST is linked to a six percent increase in car accidents. The study analyzed 20 years of data and found that DST is responsible for around 28 deaths each year. More importantly, the study found that these accident rates often decreased after the week of DST. Additionally, there was virtually no impact during the time change in November.
Data to this effect gets dragged out every year by the anti-DST campaigners. I've never disputed that it's real, but just how significant is it? If people's sleep schedules are so fragile that losing an hour is so disruptive then I wondered about the impact of holidays like New Years Eve? https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/fatal-accidents-new-years-day/
Quote:
The Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) analyzed data from the federal Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS) for the seventeen-year span from 1986 to 2002 and calculated the average number of people who died in automobile crashes for every date of the year. The results showed that in number of fatalities, January 1 ranked lower than the days immediately preceding the Christmas and Fourth of July holidays, and not significantly higher than several days in early to mid-August: DAYS WITH THE MOST CRASH DEATHS, 1986-2002 Total Avg. deaths per day July 4 2,743 161 July 3 2,534 149 Dec 23 2,470 145 Aug 3 2,413 142 Jan 1 2,411 142 Aug 6 2,387 140 Aug 4 2,365 139 Aug 12 2,359 139 July 2 2,340 138 Sept 2 2,336 137
142 deaths per year on January 1st! Surely there must be groups organizing to ban New Years!? (sarcasm) It seems rather, that a whole lot of people that feel put out by the "spring ahead" time change cynically use the public safety argument to promote their cause. If what they really want so badly is to stop the shifting back and forth, fine. But choose the option that lets the greatest number of people have their hour of light where they can make the most of it - DST.

"Forget gaining a little knowledge about a lot and strive to learn a lot about a little." - Harvey Manning

Chief Joseph, JonnyQuest
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Anne Elk
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PostSun Dec 05, 2021 12:01 pm 
You can parse statistics in different ways. Here's an abstract from "Effects of Daylight Savings Time on Fatal Motor Vehicle Accidents": "Previous research has indicated that daylight savings time (DST) affects motor vehicle accidents, but the findings are rather controversial. Sleep loss or increased daylight has been found to be the main factor affecting changes in accident rates. The purpose of this research was to identify the effects of DST on motor vehicle accidents. Data and Methods: The Fatality Analysis Reporting System (FARS) data were collected for three weeks before and three weeks after the spring DST changes for eight consecutive years from 2003 to 2010. Paired t-tests were used to examine whether there were significant differences in traffic accidents before and after DST shift in two periods, 2003-2006 and 2007-2010. Beginning 2007, DST has been extended by four weeks. Results: Fatal traffic accidents were significantly increased after DST shifts in 2003-2006 (t=7.750, p<.01) but were not significantly different after DST shifts in 2007-2010 (t=.753, p>.05). This does not support earlier claim such as sleep loss and fatigue. An interesting pattern emerged when accident rates were examined 4 weeks after DST shifts during 2007-2010 (similar to start time in earlier years). There was a significant increase in accidents between the first three weeks and the later three weeks after DST shits (t=2.258, p<.05). Conclusions: Contrary to earlier findings, DST shifts in spring do not affect fatal accidents. Rather, psychological factors might play a role in the increase in fatal traffic accidents after the spring DST changes." Here's another report in Science Daily agreeing with Randito's citation. However, the authors of this paper come to different conclusions re what to do about it: '"Our results support the theory that abolishing time changes completely would improve public health," said Vetter. "But where do we head from here? Do we go to permanent standard time or permanent daylight saving time?" Generally speaking, research has shown, it's better for sleep, the body clock, and overall health to have more morning light and less evening light, as is the case under standard time. Under permanent daylight saving time, mornings would stay dark later in winter all over the country, with the western parts of each time zone seeing the sun the latest, Vetter noted. "As a circadian biologist, my clear preference is toward standard time." [my emphasis] Let's have Marco Rubio et al chew on that one. If I had to choose, I'd prefer DST for the added hours of daylight in the evening, although I think the biologists are right. Americans are so sleep deprived, it's kind of a moot point. We'd have to significantly change our work lifestyles and habits to see some real health benefits, time changes notwithstanding.

"There are yahoos out there. Itís why we canít have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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IanB
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PostSun Dec 05, 2021 1:07 pm 
^ How dare you! Posting researched citations supporting both sides of an argument is against everything the internet stands for.

"Forget gaining a little knowledge about a lot and strive to learn a lot about a little." - Harvey Manning

Navy salad, Anne Elk
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neek
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neek
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PostSun Dec 05, 2021 1:13 pm 
Keep DST and every 6 months we'll have to listen to everyone complain about it. Kill it and we'll never hear another peep. No one will say "ugh I accidentally set my clock forward today, boy do I miss that exercise, kids these days wouldn't understand." Seems straightforward to me.

day_hike_mike
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Randito
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Randito
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PostSun Dec 05, 2021 2:21 pm 
Anne Elk wrote:
We'd have to significantly change our work lifestyles and habits to see some real health benefits, time changes notwithstanding.
More than anything else , legislation to shut down Netflix, HboMax, Paramount , etc streaming services, Social Media and Porn sites between 10PM and 6AM would reduce sleep deprivation and increase the birth rate.

Anne Elk  hikerman
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catsp
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PostSun Dec 05, 2021 4:08 pm 
Seems like there is a very simple and straightforward solution. For much of the population time is determined by automatically adjusting timepieces. Simply have the clocks by which everyone's timepieces are set adjust forward by like 3 minutes a day beginning mid-March, hold fast after the 1 hour advance is reached, then at the appropriate time start the taper to return to standard time by early-November. Indeed, through this method we can adjust the daylight savings even further to take maximum advantage of the increased daylight hours. E.g., if desired we could add minutes all the way up to the summer solstice before starting the taper. Not sure why Rubio isn't all over this.

reststep
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