Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Our poop in use
 Reply to topic
Previous :: Next Topic
Author Message
Kim Brown
Member
Member


Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts: 6576 | TRs | Pics
Kim Brown
Member
PostMon Mar 14, 2022 8:58 am 
Yes, the water is tested frequently, by a variety of agencies including tribes, who have an obvious, keen interest. Big pollutant culprits are farm runoff (poop, insecticides), brake dust (you, me, millions of others), general pollution from houses, towns, cities. At least LOOP is regulated, cleaned, and monitored.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert

RichP
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Cyclopath
Faster than light



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 6124 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle
Cyclopath
Faster than light
PostMon Apr 11, 2022 5:31 pm 
Anne Elk wrote:
I repeat my objection: King County cannot possibly afford to test for everything that goes into our sewers.
Kim Brown wrote:
Yes, the water is tested frequently, by a variety of agencies including tribes, who have an obvious, keen interest.
These can both be true at the same time.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Ski
><((((į>



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 12267 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma
Ski
><((((į>
PostWed Apr 27, 2022 9:01 am 
Anne - if you have not already seen a documentary film titled "The Devil We Know" (https://thedevilweknow.com/ ) I highly recommend it. The DuPont company has managed to bury this story for decades. Only recently have the long-term effects really started coming to light. I questioned the use of sewage sludge when I first saw it being applied up near Eatonville in the Pack Forest (near the confluence of the Nisqually and Mashel Rivers) both on Weyerhauser-owned private timber lands and lands administered by the state. Currently that area is the site of a proposed new "Nisqually State Park", which will host several dozen overnight campsites. The long-term effects will be irreversible and disastrous. Something along the lines of "The Man Who Was Never Born" from an early "Outer Limits" episode. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Was_Never_Born) I have two neighbors - both of them within 500 feet of me - who annually have five cubic yards of "Tagrow" delivered by the City of Tacoma. Both of them have it dumped right next to the curb. Both of their houses are about 4 vertical feet higher than the storm drain down on the corner, which dumps directly into Puget Sound. That's just two homes, on one city block, in one place, in one city. Do the math.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."

Anne Elk
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist



Joined: 07 Sep 2018
Posts: 1992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle
Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
PostWed Apr 27, 2022 12:23 pm 
Thanks, Ski. I haven't seen that program, but I'm aware of the issues around Teflon. You couldn't get me to use coated cookware of any kind, Teflon or otherwise. Kim and I will have to agree to disagree on this subject. Gov'ts lie, or in retrospect, can always plead ignorance re what's still in that stuff, and what the future effects might be. It's just too convenient and cheap a solution for King County, et al, and they'll trumpet how well tested and safe the product is, to justify it as the best solution for what to do with sewage sludge. I keep wondering if/when we'll hear that the nuclear waste plume that's been creeping underground from Hanford has finally reached the Columbia. doof.gif

"There are yahoos out there. Itís why we canít have nice things." - Tom Mahood
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Schroder
Member
Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 6334 | TRs | Pics
Location: on the beach
Schroder
Member
PostWed Apr 27, 2022 12:35 pm 
Kim Brown wrote:
Yes, the water is tested frequently, by a variety of agencies including tribes, who have an obvious, keen interest. Big pollutant culprits are farm runoff (poop, insecticides), brake dust (you, me, millions of others), general pollution from houses, towns, cities. At least LOOP is regulated, cleaned, and monitored.
They don't test for much. In the wastewater coliform on a daily basis, heavy metals infrequently and organics almost never. But we're talking about sludge here and that's where all the nasty stuff is concentrated. LOOP is not special nor any different than the standards everywhere else - just their catchphrase for the stuff. Don't bring it anywhere near where I live. What I find interesting is the coronavirus levels being detected recently in the wastewater systems

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Ski
><((((į>



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 12267 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma
Ski
><((((į>
PostWed Apr 27, 2022 9:24 pm 
^ lovely. thanks, Schroder. I needed to know there's one more thing out there trying to kill me. up.gif

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist



Joined: 07 Sep 2018
Posts: 1992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle
Anne Elk
BrontosaurusTheorist
PostWed Apr 27, 2022 10:33 pm 
Schroder wrote:
They don't test for much. In the wastewater coliform on a daily basis, heavy metals infrequently and organics almost never. But we're talking about sludge here and that's where all the nasty stuff is concentrated.
That reminds me - one factoid I hadn't mentioned earlier is that I'd heard from the horse's mouth (King County employee) that the LOOP product they spread over clearcuts (which is what got this thread started) is not cleaned to the same standard as the stuff they package up and sell to consumers for their gardens. I didn't inquire about what they're letting go into our forests that isn't ok for our gardens. Have a nice day. devilsmile.gif

"There are yahoos out there. Itís why we canít have nice things." - Tom Mahood
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Kim Brown
Member
Member


Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts: 6576 | TRs | Pics
Kim Brown
Member
PostThu Apr 28, 2022 7:59 am 
It's not likely people are clamoring to picnic and camp and hike in a clearcut - though Mt Catherine area is sprayed with waste and no one seems to mind that - nor do people mind drinking wine from grapes that grow around The Gorge Ampitheater spilling over with pooping, peeing, and barfing people (sp, and I don't care, it's a silly word anyway) . Spraying in a clearcut that no one visits may be less harmful than the blueberries and huckleberries we eat from plants growing in the poop and pee from myriad hikers throughout the ages. Or the fish we eat from the oceans teeming with Mr Poo. Or food from gardens fertilized with - fertilizer. Or avocados or meat or fruit or other veggies from countries with low or no standards - profit over anything else. Nor do people seem to mind swimming and bathing in our rivers and oceans brimming with human stew. No do we mind breathing in the billions of bits of brake dust and other silly pollutants in every day life. Weíre happy to have Amazon Prime package plastic bullsh## in Styrofoam and bring stuff to us in a cloud of petrol pollution and brake dust. On the other hand anything we can do to eliminate at least some of this from our lives is good; if you don't like LOOP, find out what farms use it, and don't buy from that vendor or the companies that purchase from those farms who supply them. We can only do so much. I don't care for online purchases, but I use it on occasion. I eat food, and I drive my car, which contributes a lot of pollution - which is probably more harmful than anything else I do.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Ski
><((((į>



Joined: 27 May 2005
Posts: 12267 | TRs | Pics
Location: tacoma
Ski
><((((į>
PostThu Apr 28, 2022 8:11 am 
Kim, it's not the human waste that is the problem. Humans have been using their own poop for fertilizer for a long time. Your grandmother boiling the hell out of everything was a carry-over from times when everything from the garden had to be boiled or it would make you sick. It's not the poop. It's the rest of the stuff that gets flushed down toilets and ends up in wastewater treatment plants. My next-door neighbor works for an environmental consulting firm. Formerly she worked with various city planning departments. We talk now and then. One anecdote she passed on was telling me they were finding traces of birth control drugs (and its effects) in the marine life that lives on the floor of Commencement Bay. That is a problem. If what we are pumping into Commencement Bay is affecting the reproductive processes of marine organisms, what's that sewage sludge going to do to the spotted slugs and salamanders we're doing "survey and manage" for?

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."

Anne Elk
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Cyclopath
Faster than light



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 6124 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle
Cyclopath
Faster than light
PostThu Apr 28, 2022 11:13 am 
Kim Brown wrote:
Yes, the water is tested frequently, by a variety of agencies including tribes, who have an obvious, keen interest. Big pollutant culprits are farm runoff (poop, insecticides), brake dust (you, me, millions of others), general pollution from houses, towns, cities. At least LOOP is regulated, cleaned, and monitored.
Kim Brown wrote:
It's not likely people are clamoring to picnic and camp and hike in a clearcut
The stuff is so clean and well monitored, they can only use it where people will never be?

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Brucester
aka like2thruhike



Joined: 02 Jun 2013
Posts: 992 | TRs | Pics
Location: Greenwood
Brucester
aka like2thruhike
PostSat Apr 30, 2022 3:30 pm 
RichP wrote:
Poking around on a nameless bump
PM me before your next adventure! smile.gif I saw this post then immediately searched Milorganite, a product my boss said contained human waste. The search revealed that urban legend and it was false.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Kim Brown
Member
Member


Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts: 6576 | TRs | Pics
Kim Brown
Member
PostThu May 05, 2022 7:51 am 
Cyclopath wrote:
Kim Brown wrote:
It's not likely people are clamoring to picnic and camp and hike in a clearcut
The stuff is so clean and well monitored, they can only use it where people will never be?
I would guess they modify the last step when used on clear cut where it's less likely people will be picknicking and camping. LOOP sits for a couple months or so after the various processes before bagging it up for garden and farm use. My guess is that instead of the added cost and time of letting it sit for a couple month and then putting it on a clear cut - it's directly placed at the clear cut.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Cyclopath
Faster than light



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 6124 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle
Cyclopath
Faster than light
PostThu May 05, 2022 10:19 am 
Kim Brown wrote:
I would guess they modify the last step when used on clear cut where it's less likely people will be picknicking and camping. LOOP sits for a couple months or so after the various processes before bagging it up for garden and farm use. My guess is that instead of the added cost and time of letting it sit for a couple month and then putting it on a clear cut - it's directly placed at the clear cut.
Ok but it's the post when you told us everything is safe and there's nothing to worry about or object to, that I'm wondering about.
Kim Brown wrote:
Yes, the water is tested frequently, by a variety of agencies including tribes, who have an obvious, keen interest. Big pollutant culprits are farm runoff (poop, insecticides), brake dust (you, me, millions of others), general pollution from houses, towns, cities. At least LOOP is regulated, cleaned, and monitored.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Kim Brown
Member
Member


Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts: 6576 | TRs | Pics
Kim Brown
Member
PostThu May 05, 2022 11:06 am 
Read above; someone introduced a "someone said someone said" about spraying less-treated stuff on clear cut. In response is in case the someone said someone said person is correct, my guess is as to why less treated LOOP may be being used on clear cut. You seem to have a problem with my trust of Loop. Relax, for chrissake. My opinion and guesses are not going to affect anyone's life one way or the other.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Sculpin
Member
Member


Joined: 23 Apr 2015
Posts: 1201 | TRs | Pics
Sculpin
Member
PostFri May 06, 2022 8:08 am 
A note about chemical analysis (something I did before I retired): Rhetorical question: What would it take to test for "everything" in a sewage sludge sample? First of all, different methods are used for organics and for metals. Organics, such as drug residues, require separation by Gas Chromatograph (GC) and identification by Mass Spectrometer (MS). The MS provides a molecular weight, but a given molecular weight might be consistent with multiple compounds, requiring a lot of extra work to figure out. A single sample might produce peaks for 200 organic compounds, some at extremely low concentrations but there is no quant information from the MS. Work has to be done on each one. Once the organics are ID'ed, the amount needs to be quantified. To quantify the amount, standards need to be developed, usually by an outside lab that specializes in it. A good rule is three standards of different concentrations for each compound. Each has to be run on the GC to generate a concentration/response curve. With 200 organics, this could easily take a full year of lab work. Meanwhile, there would also be an elemental analysis to look for metals like selenium and arsenic, which would not show on the GC/MS analysis. This analysis is done by Atomic Absorption (AA) or Inductively-Coupled Argon Plasma Spectroscopy (ICAP). Generally, calibration curves are already available for metals (since the periodic table is not so big compared to the millions of organic compounds), which greatly shortens the analysis time. So long story short, no one is going around exhaustively analyzing anything on a systematic basis. Instead, a major project is undertaken to analyze sewage sludge in general, as described above, and then a list of maybe thirty priority pollutants is developed. All further tests then use established calibration curves for those thirty pollutants of interest. It can't be any other way, it is just too much work.

Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
   All times are GMT - 8 Hours
 Reply to topic
Forum Index > Public Lands Stewardship > Our poop in use
  Happy Birthday detekt!
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum