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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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PostWed Apr 27, 2022 12:52 pm 

cdestroyer, seawallrunner, Bowregard
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Bowregard
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PostWed Apr 27, 2022 12:59 pm 
Thanks for that - I needed a good laugh. My company just brought back an ex-employee (PM type) as a contractor again for a third time to try and help sort out why they can't seem to make progress on a legacy product release. I asked him if he explained that laying off all the technical resources with domain knowledge and outsourcing the project could have something to do with it smile.gif Is it really that hard to understand?

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CS
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PostWed Apr 27, 2022 1:01 pm 
I feel like we're doomed to never really being able to get a handle on complexity in software, and to validate software works due to all the different combinations of states. At some point you could argue that there isn't enough energy in the universe to be able to validate MS Word works correctly for example. I'd like to think we could make progress and at some point programming will at least be less error prone for future generations.

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Bowregard
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PostWed Apr 27, 2022 1:18 pm 
IMHO it is getting better but it seems to be following a repeating pattern. The deployment and code validation tools I use today are much better than those used in the past and provide enough structure to potentially limit test requirements but also increase the complexity dramatically. 30 years ago 3D CAD tools got dramatically better (i.e. parametrics, associative models with databases, etc.) but the complexity involved with how to manage all that new capability was daunting. But after enough CEOs got burned buying "gee whiz" features without products to manage them the industry shifted to focus towards control and it eventually became useful. History has a way of repeating itself.

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Randito
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PostWed Apr 27, 2022 7:59 pm 
CS wrote:
I feel like we're doomed to never really being able to get a handle on complexity in software, and to validate software works due to all the different combinations of states. At some point you could argue that there isn't enough energy in the universe to be able to validate MS Word works correctly for example. I'd like to think we could make progress and at some point programming will at least be less error prone for future generations.
A bit dated , but a good illustration of the fallacy of perfectionism.
Quote:
Woman in a bar A mathematician and an engineer are sitting at a table drinking when a very beautiful woman walks in and sits down at the bar. The mathematician sighs. "I'd like to talk to her, but first I have to cover half the distance between where we are and where she is, then half of the distance that remains, then half of that distance, and so on. The series is infinite. There'll always be some finite distance between us." The engineer gets up and starts walking. "Ah, well, I figure I can get close enough for all practical purposes."

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Cyclopath
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PostWed Apr 27, 2022 8:10 pm 
∆ Zeno's paradox. Speaking of math, alcohol, etc jokes: A mathematician, a physicist, and a biologist are having lunch outside. It's such a nice day they draw it out, crack open a beer, and people watch. They saw two people go into a shed when they arrived and three come out as they're packing up. A little inebriated, the biologist says "how cute, they're reproducing!" The physicist replies "no, we must have miscounted." Under his breath, the mathematician says "if one more person goes in that building, it'll be empty again."

Kascadia
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Bowregard
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PostWed Apr 27, 2022 8:12 pm 
Randito wrote:
The engineer gets up and starts walking. "Ah, well, I figure I can get close enough for all practical purposes."
Who's kidding who - I'm betting BOTH are too terrified to take one step in her direction rolleyes.gif (it did say "very beautiful" didn't it?) The mathematician just has a better excuse. I started to type three engineer jokes but realized each was no longer appropriate these days and erased them all. I must need to get out of the house more frown.gif

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Randito
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PostWed Apr 27, 2022 10:15 pm 
Bowregard wrote:
I started to type three engineer jokes but realized each was no longer appropriate these days and erased them all.
My favorite "three engineers" joke is this: A Mechanical Engineer, Electrical Engineer and a Civil Engineer are discussing what sort of Engineer is G-D The Mechanical Engineer says, look at the skeleton, the ligaments and the muscles! G-D is clearly a Mechanical Engineer. The Electrical Engineer says, look at the brain and the nervous system , G-D is clearly an Electrical Engineer. The Civil Engineer say, Nah, you're both wrong, G-D is a Civil Engineer, who else would place a waste disposal system in the middle of a recreational area?

cdestroyer, CS  Bowregard
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Joey
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PostThu Apr 28, 2022 8:39 am 
And where would a discussion of computers and software be without disclaimers - which no one reads. One of my favorites: In the incredibly unlikely situation this website/service breaks your computer, burns down your house, or otherwise starts armageddon, it's not our fault! Credit: https://www.geoseer.net/about.php

rossb
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BigBrunyon
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PostFri Apr 29, 2022 12:21 am 
These days if you don't have several various internet-based tech programs running behind the scenes, you're not getting anywhere. I have several tech programs running on internet based communication cloud deploys. Extremely complex. In the current network scape of the MAIN CODE COMPUTER, many international based code-driven tech powerhouse application internet stacks are required for full migration build configuration of ALL component infrastructure cloud databi.

zimmertr
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cdestroyer
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PostFri Apr 29, 2022 6:08 am 
In the current network scape of the MAIN CODE COMPUTER, many international based code-driven tech powerhouse application internet stacks are required for full migration build configuration of ALL component infrastructure cloud databi. HUH?

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rossb
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PostTue May 03, 2022 4:07 pm 
Randito wrote:
zimmertr wrote:
Whether or not someone can invert a binary tree is irrelevant when 90% of business code is CRUD....
The coding puzzle type tests are less about whether they can craft a solution to the puzzle, but more about the process they go through at arriving at a solution.
Yeah, but it is BS. There is no evidence that it works at all. I remember being asked to code atoi for an interview. I was prepared. I started by writing unit code. It took the interviewers a while before they figured out what I was doing, and of course I got the job. Was I a better candidate than some other schmuck who applied? Probably not, but I really wanted the job, did a little research on what types of questions they were going to ask and came prepared. This had nothing to do with my job, of course. The idea that these type of questions weed out the folks you don't want to hire, or reveal the great ones is total BS. I've been on both sides of it, and it has no record of success. Frankly, if you are trying to determine the qualifications of a candidate at a job interview, your process sucks. That should all be done well before then. I remember being at a party and asking a lawyer, an actuary and a manager for a big health care company how they determine who the really good candidates are. They all said the same thing: references. But the software field is weird. We think we can somehow ask a special question in an interview that will make up for what the manager and their colleagues think of the work they've been doing for years. It is absurd. Interview questions should be about fit. "So, you worked at a big company last time, do you think you are OK working for a small one?". "We generally expect people to focus on a specific domain, as opposed to focusing on the front end or back end -- does that sound OK with you?". You get the idea. The person might have been great at their last job, but a terrible fit at the new company (sort of like Westbrook for the Lakers). The last interview I had was like that. I pretty much had the job, as I had worked with someone who was working there. He was outstanding, and recommended me. But they did ask me a few good questions about fit, at which point I knew this was going to be a great fit. Now I'm retired. There are a few things I miss about working in software, but the hiring process isn't one of them.

Bowregard, Cyclopath, zimmertr
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CS
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PostTue May 03, 2022 4:51 pm 
It depends on what your making in my exp. If you're making some enterprise app, then you need to select for people who know a framework well. If you're making a regular consumer app, then people who can glue things together is a good fit etc. But if you're making something new and complex, like a platform, dealing with large scales etc. you have to have people who are comfortable working from first principles and have some basic algorithm knowledge. I recently encountered an enterprisey framework guy who ended up in a solidly algorithm based position. Things that should have taken a couple of weeks dragged on for months. The biggest issue I noticed was that he couldn't trust in his own reasoning, he had to see it on a website first. In one surreal incident, I explained opaque identifiers to him for maybe a half hour to make sure he understood, then the following week it was clear he still didn't get it. When I sent him a link to the Wikipedia page, his reaction was "oh that was real!?". huh.gif

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Bowregard
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PostTue May 03, 2022 5:09 pm 
I hate to sound like a dinosaur but you made a good point about the coding puzzle test - you were prepared. After watching some of the newbies they hired at my employer just finding out if they are willing to be prepared would have avoided some bad fits. Some of these new hires are not even willing to expend the effort to practice what they are shown to become proficient. When I hired in as a contractor I had very little experience for the job but when somebody was willing to show me something I wrote it down and learned how to do it. Don't get me wrong - some are very bright and hard working and will work out fine, but I doubt the ones who are not would even bother to prepare themselves for a coding puzzle. I am not involved with the hiring process any more (thank goodness) but they have gone from asking for a long list of OS, languages, DEVOPS tools, etc. skills to basic UNIX proficiency and many of the folks they hired can't even live up to that. To be fair the interview process at many places is so watered down that you have to ask everyone the exact same questions vetted through HR and can't ask follow on questions when you hear something that catches your attention. Given that process I would like to include a puzzle if only to hear how they approach the problem and react under pressure. I sure am with you when it comes to the interviewing process today. No thanks

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