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Seattle_Wayne
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Seattle_Wayne
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PostSun Jun 19, 2022 7:40 am 
altasnob wrote:
dixon wrote:
the store manager was apparently furious as criminals can actually sue the store if they should get injured while stealing from the store.
Here is Washington's shopkeeper privilege law that allows stores to briefly detain a person to see if they are, in fact, shoplifting. But again, you can only use reasonable force.
This is actually really helpful and I'd like to add that the majority of retail stores have "trained" loss prevention or asset prevention associates- and many, many years ago stores were much more vigilant when it came to catching shoplifters. Over time, for whatever reason, stores have moved to a more hands off approach. Probably to reduce employee injury. When an employee gets injured on the job, it's costly. It's not so much the shoplifter turning around and filing lawsuit as it is the company paying L&I and time off to the employee to recover from injury. The companies I worked for required Five Steps or Five Elements before making an apprehension on a shoplifter. Whether we were in the camera room or on the sales floor, we had to physically watch the person enter either the store or the specific department. This will help in determining that the person did not enter the store with merchandise already in hand- i.e to conduct a return or to price match, etc. The second step is selection of the merchandise. The third step is concealment of said selected merchandise. The fourth step is uninterrupted surveillance. Whether on the sales floor or in the camera room, you can not look away, get distracted, answer the phone, etc- 100% visual of the person and where the merchandise is concealed must be maintained. If they walk between racks, enter a fitting room, bathroom, etc. you can not make the apprehension. As long as you can verify, by following their every footstep, check every rack they passed by, nook, cranny, etc and you're 100% they did not dump the merchandise, you can stop them. Most Loss Prevention Teams have a supervisor in the camera room most of the time to make those judgement calls on whether the stop can be made depending on the path of the would-be shoplifter. Lastly, the person must pass the last point of sale. Some stores require the person to actually exit the building while some require the person to touch the door or make an attempt to exit. We used to be able to stop shoplifters after they made obvious concealment before entering bathrooms, elevators, stairwells ect. But LE stopped prosecuting those stops because even though they concealed the merchandise in a bag, down their pants, etc, the argument can be made that they have not left the store and they charged their minds and wanted to pay for it. Fitting room stops were more tricky, because after the person left the fitting room after going in there with merchandise, you had to do a complete sweep of the entire fitting room. They could've thrown the merchandise into an adjacent stall, and if you don't verify that, you can't make the stop. Also, most stores have a two item rule meaning there has to be more than two items missing after you check the rooms. And you can not make stops on ANY small items. Pairs of socks, small jewelry items, perfume bottles- all a no-go no matter what. The good news is this. A lot of Loss Prevention teams have great surveillance video, cameras and photographing opportunities and people who steal usually get their face plastered in the LP office and shared amongst other stores and passed onto LE. It's easy to steal and get away with it because companies have a lot of red tape to get through to actually stop someone when they are stealing. But rest assure, it's noticed and documented. When I worked Seattle, we caught 200+ a year and that's just small numbers compared to how many we had to watch run out of the store with stuff because we didn't see them until it was too late or we were missing a "step" even though we saw most everything else. It's all about liability. There's this thing called a Non-Productive Detainment. It's when a Loss Prevention Associate stops someone they think is stealing and they did not recover the merchandise. That is very bad in the LP world and I've seen many, many associates get fired for stopping someone like that just once. There's no grey area. The other rules are also in effect and will end up in termination if you break them- going more than 100 feet in a pursuit- some stores have no pursuit rules. Going hands on and using excessive force, causing injury, going off the curb into traffic, chasing suspect into traffic, etc. Most stores used to carrying handcuffs. Most don't anymore and resulted into deescalation training. So next time you see someone stealing and you think no one is doing anything about it, more than likely they want to. They just can't or are building a case. We used to watch the same person come in and nickel and dime us for one shirt here, one shirt there. Then we'd burn all the video, add up the cost of merchandise stolen, catch them eventually and send all our stuff to LE. It's $1,200 for a felony now. Most LP want big stops. Not one $20 movie when there are people stealing $800 bikes or stacks and stacks of Polo shirts at $80 a shirt. Denim was a hot item and we used to stand in denim department and wait for an hour and then they'd come in three or four deep and start loading up denim into plastic bags. We would catch maybe one or two of them and recover four or five bags of denim- those are the big stops LP likes. Not someone stealing a can of ice cream or a couple pairs of socks. At the end of the day, it's just stuff and it's not worth getting hurt over or shot at. I got pepper sprayed by a guy trying to steal a $250 dollar necklace. It's not fun and back then wages were $9/hr. Now LP are making upwards of $22 some times $25 depending on the store. You'd never believe the kind of clientele we caught. From drug addicts, to soccer moms, bored house wives, Microsoft techies making six figure salaries to lots and lots of teenagers. Minors were the worst because we had to call their parents and the parents would have to come down and get them- some times the parents verbally accosted us, and some didn't want to come get their kid. So then we'd have to wait on police and some times the cops didn't want to come deal with it. Meanwhile, while we were stuck dealing with our suspect, we'd be getting phone calls of other people stealing. Some days it was endless while other days, nothing was going on. And that was just shoplifters. Nevermind the countless employees who were stealing merchandise, cash, time theft, etc. If we suspected an employee was stealing, we had to sit in the camera room from the time they clocked in to the time they clocked out. It was pretty boring and some times we'd have to do it for weeks on end so that meant we didn't catch any shoplifters. Anyway. I hope this helps some of you understand a little more why it looks like no one is doing anything about shoplifting or why there is so much of it. Employees used to talk bad about LP all the time- calling us lazy, never around, don't care, etc. because they'd see more theft than we would and since we weren't actively out stopping it, they think we just didn't care. One tactic we used to help show we are doing our jobs was after catching a shoplifter, we'd cuff them up and walk them through the busiest part of the store in front of everyone to show we are catching people- we called it the "walk of shame". Then we'd give $20 dollars store credit to whoever called on a shoplifter that led to an apprehension or merchandise recovery. Sorry for the long winded post- it was kind of fun thinking back on the job- but glad I don't do that stuff anymore. _Cheers Edit: Oh, one thing i'd like to add- it's very hard for stores to retain their LP associates. Aside from the pay, the benefits are terrible- 3 weeks of vacation a year with many, many black out days. No vacation is permitted during 4th Quarter- holidays, sales, weekends, etc. We got two days off a week but those were usually split days. Lots and lots of closing shifts if the LP teams ran the store alarms- some stores allowed one or two managers to have alarm access. The majority of LP associates usually move on after a year or so or are recruited my police departments. It's tough to keep a team together and the training to become apprehension certified takes about 2-3 months.

Vesper Peak

car68, zimmertr, Ski, Leafguy, dixon
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coldrain108
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coldrain108
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PostSun Jun 19, 2022 9:21 am 
I worked in a grocery store in California back in the 70's. We would watch the liquor aisle. Plenty of theft. Our method was to make a loud announcement over the PA. 86 on aisle 3 or what ever. Most of the time that got the person to put down the item and leave the store. I once followed the perp out the door and he turned around and threw the liquor bottle at me, so the merchandise was lost and the perp got away. I was 17 and stupid. We thought we were Starskey and Hutch.

Since I have no expectations of forgiveness, I don't do it in the first place. That loop hole needs to be closed to everyone.

zimmertr
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Backpacker Joe
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Backpacker Joe
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PostMon Jun 20, 2022 8:17 pm 
Tom wrote:
The reality is you're more likely be injured on the drive/hike to/from the trailhead than by evildoers at the trailhead. If you must, obsess about the other stuff more. Don't text while you drive, go prepared, etc. If I'm ever in a situation like this at most I'd activate the sos on my phone and/or inreach but for sure would not escalate. I'd venture to guess your odds of dying are significantly higher if you choose to escalate. Heck, even if I could change my outcome from 100% losing my property and 99.9% chance of living to not losing my property but 5% chance of dying I wouldn't take the risk. Life is not an arcade game. You don't insert another quarter to play again.
Tom is right of course. He would certainly know, having done what he's done his whole life. That said, we all have car insurance, home owners insurance, life insurance etc. because ultimately things do happen to us that we need to protect ourselves from . Ive carried a gun my whole life. To me a gun is simple life insurance. Ive needed it twice. Im happy Ive not needed it more but Im glad I had it when I did. Even the CDC keeps stats of US citizens using guns to protect themselves every year. The number is over two million times per year! The great thing about the United States is that at least for the time being we all can make the choice for ourselves. rocker.gif

"If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide." — Abraham Lincoln

Chief Joseph, runup
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Tom
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PostMon Jun 20, 2022 8:33 pm 
I can imagine situations where a weapon (whatever it may be) would be better than not having one. That said I've never once in my life actually needed one. I can think of one particular road rage incident where some hot head forced me off the road and opened my car door. I diffused the situation by telling him my bad, no excuse, I screwed up. I think he was so dumbfounded he didn't know what to do he just slammed my car door and walked away in a huff. I'm actually glad I didn't have a weapon in that situation as I may have chosen a different option and had to live with the consequences.

Anne Elk, Bramble_Scramble, zimmertr
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Randito
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PostTue Jun 21, 2022 5:37 am 
A coworker of mine in the past got a concealed carry permit and a snub nose .38. Unfortunately in his case this resulted in him feeling emboldened and engaging in stupid "road rage" games. I think this mostly "testosterone poisoning" of a mid-20s young man. Anyway he did end up pulling his weapon and pointing at someone that he had antagonized with stupid driving behavior. This caused the other party to back off , but their girlfriend called 911. When the police showed up , they didn't ask any questions but had him on the ground and in cuffs very quickly. Months of legal wrangling later and $8000 in legal fees later he had the charges against him dropped on the condition that he give up his concealed carry permit. So if you feel the need to carry a firearm for self defense, be careful that it doesn't go to your head and result in you acting in a rude manner and creating needless conflict. For me, in a hiking context, I feel like bear spray is a lower risk, much cheaper and useful tool for defending against various forms of "wildlife".

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cdestroyer
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PostTue Jun 21, 2022 7:09 am 
I thought the topic of weapons was a nono on this site? not any more?

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Cyclopath
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PostTue Jun 21, 2022 8:10 am 
cdestroyer wrote:
I thought the topic of weapons was a nono on this site? not any more?
That's only for people who want the rules to apply to them.

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Randito
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PostTue Jun 21, 2022 3:10 pm 
FWIW: The Bellevue PD and King County Sheriff made some arrests:
Bellevue, WA Police Department wrote:
Prolific Coal Creek Trailhead car prowl suspects arrested and charged with 12 felonies, including ID theft and robbery. In a joint operation, Bellevue police and the King County Sheriff’s Office have arrested multiple suspects in dozens and dozens of car prowls, ID thefts and a robbery in the region. Bellevue detectives say Jhonny Taylor and Dominique Callier used a window punch to break into cars, stole credit cards and used them to buy or attempt to purchase gift cards. Taylor and Callier face 12 felony charges in connection with their crime spree. Detectives were able to identify the Taylor and Callier after reviewing surveillance video after multiple cars were prowled at the Coal Creek Trail Head. “These suspects brazenly drove into parking lots in broad daylight, punched out windows, prowled dozens of cars, then immediately went to stores to fraudulently use stolen credit cards,” said Captain Shelby Shearer. “This happened at locations all over the Puget Sound Region. And we know from their criminal history that there was a propensity for violence and that we needed to get them off the streets.” Taylor and another suspect, Francisco Pineda, are also accused of at least ten car prowls at a trailhead in North Bend, where the pair allegedly fired four shots at the victims who interrupted a prowl. As they fled, detectives say they assaulted a woman and stole her car. Bellevue and King County Detectives located the suspects on June 8th. When deputies arrested them, they recovered a stolen .357 revolver. A search of Taylor’s residence netted stolen credit cards, identification and fraudulently obtained gift cards. Taylor and Pineda are charged with robbery, assault and unlawful possession of a firearm. “Working with the King County Sheriff’s Office, we were able to identify, arrest and get these suspects behind bars,” Shearer added. “We know these prowls are frightening for our residents and costly and potentially dangerous.” A search of Callier’s residence netted stolen credit cards, multiple key fobs, victims’ ID cards and other property that was stolen during vehicle prowls. To help prevent becoming a victim of a car prowl, you are urged never to leave valuables in your car. If you must leave items unattended, hide them before arriving at your location. Also, don’t forget to lock your doors. Case # 22-21647

RichP, car68, breadcrumb, Anne Elk, zimmertr
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altasnob
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PostTue Jun 21, 2022 3:37 pm 
22-1-00043-7 SEA STATE OF WASHINGTON VS CALLIER, DOMINIQUE DSHAY 06/23/2022 08:30 AM Arraignment Hearing Courtroom E1201 22-1-03752-7 SEA STATE OF WASHINGTON VS TAYLOR, JHONNY CASSANOVA 06/23/2022 08:30 AM Arraignment Hearing Courtroom E1201 You can plug in case numbers above if you want to see what is happening on these cases: https://kingcounty.gov/courts/clerk/access-records/records-portal.aspx

car68, breadcrumb, Anne Elk
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Randito
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PostTue Jun 21, 2022 3:55 pm 
catsp wrote:
BPD wrote:
... suspects ... used a window punch to break into cars .... To help prevent becoming a victim of a car prowl ... don’t forget to lock your doors.
lol.gif
IDK -- but one of my neighbors shared some security cam footage a couple of weeks ago where a punk came through our development at 2AM and was trying car door handles to see if any were unlocked. Apparently the Bellevue PD does take in enough car prowl reports with doors unlocked that they feel like it's worth mentioning. I think it is a bit like locking up your bike -- high end bike thieves can steal your bike no matter how tough a lock you use, the higher quality the lock you use -- the more "professional" the theives need to be. But if you don't lock it at all -- a little punk with no knowlege can nick it.

Anne Elk
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Seattle_Wayne
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PostTue Jun 21, 2022 4:10 pm 
I've been seeing more and more arrests and hikers reporting they're seeing more deputies patrolling trailheads. It only took a woman getting her head beat in with a flash light for law enforcement to finally cough up the resources they claim they don't have for trailhead thieves.

Vesper Peak

thunderhead, ChinookPass, Chief Joseph
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neek
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PostTue Jun 21, 2022 4:33 pm 
Maybe it's a function of where you park. In my driveway people check the doors all the time and might be reluctant to make noise breaking a window, but at a trailhead who cares. Anyway, nice to see some progress.

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Anne Elk
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PostTue Jun 21, 2022 4:45 pm 
cdestroyer wrote:
I thought the topic of weapons was a nono on this site? not any more?
That's right, although in this thread perhaps relevant given the incident (since even Tom has discussed, above). But let's end that digression and stay on topic.
Seattle_Wayne wrote:
It only took a woman getting her head beat in with a flash light for law enforcement to finally cough up the resources they claim they don't have for trailhead thieves.
Gunfire and a car hijack were also part of that incident, so it was probably more those things, eh? Maybe the massive amt of evidence connected with these perps underscores to LE that paying attention to TH crime can really pay off. These guys were real pros - a window punch? Wow. Maybe some thank-you emails to the LE jurisdictions from the hiking community will also incentivize more LE attention. up.gif

"There are yahoos out there. It’s why we can’t have nice things." - Tom Mahood

SpookyKite89, breadcrumb, car68
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zimmertr
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zimmertr
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PostTue Jun 21, 2022 4:48 pm 
It's funny to me that there is even rampant crime at the Coal Creek TH. I just moved to that area and 50% of the time I drive by that trailhead there are moto cops waiting there with radar guns. It's the biggest speed trap I've seen in my life given that the trailhead sits at the bottom of a small valley. What's curious is that for a few weeks there was a construction sign at the entrance warning visitors not to leave anything in their vehicles. However it was recently removed. I figured it would be a permanent installation given the notoriety of the place. Anyway, glad these jerks were caught and charged.

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Randito
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PostTue Jun 21, 2022 7:23 pm 
neek wrote:
Maybe it's a function of where you park.
Absolutely. My place is on a dead end street in a residential area. Having any car prowling is rare. A friend of mine used to have place close to Aurora Ave in North Seattle, there he had to leave the windows rolled down and the driver door ajar to avoid having windows smashed or the driver door lock busted with a screwdriver and sledge hammer. Every night.

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