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Joey
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Joey
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PostThu Jul 07, 2022 10:55 am 
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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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PostThu Jul 07, 2022 11:51 am 
Done.  I almost gave up several times beer the auto scroll feature makes it almost impossible.

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Tom
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Tom
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PostThu Jul 07, 2022 12:32 pm 
Quote:
WTA believes that class 2 and 3 e-bikes should not be allowed on non-motorized, natural surface trails.

Ugh!  There is NO practical difference between class 1 vs. class 2 and 3 when it comes to use on natural surface trails.  NONE!  Any class 2 or class 3 bike can be made class 1 simply by limiting the maximum assisted speed to 20 mph or removing throttle.  People with class 2 or 3 bikes aren't going to be going on natural surface trails to ride over 20 mph anyway so it doesn't matter!  While an argument could be made that class 2 might use throttle who the F cares?  It's mostly used for safety and practical reasons, but not substantially different than another person with the same bike using pedal assist.

call-151, Opus
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trestle
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trestle
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PostThu Jul 07, 2022 12:43 pm 
Tom wrote:
People with class 2 or 3 bikes aren't going to be going on natural surface trails to ride over 20 mph anyway

lol.gif

Human nature has proven time and again; anything that CAN be done on an e-bike WILL be done at some point.

I'm glad the agencies are discussing this now rather than 3 years from now.

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"Life favors the prepared." - Edna Mode

IanB
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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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PostThu Jul 07, 2022 1:08 pm 
Tom wrote:
While an argument could be made that class 2 might use throttle who the F cares?

I think that's the point of the survey.  To find out if people care.   If we could just declare that other people aren't bothered by things we enjoy, bikes would have been allowed on every trail decades ago.  Unfortunately people see things different and care very much about surprising things.

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Tom
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Tom
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PostThu Jul 07, 2022 1:20 pm 
Trestle, they could just set a speed limit for all bikes if that's the issue.  But from a practical standpoint it doesn't matter as any trail where one would actually want to ride above 20 mph isn't going to be a trail under discussion.  The real reason I suspect for the push to disallow class 2-3 (other than cluelessness in the case of WTA) is that class 1 tend to be eurpoean spec (half as powerful motor) so it's the only option they have to keep more powerful ebikes out if regulators allow them on a trail.  I totally understand why MTBers might not want ebikes on their trails, just saying for any trail that ebike makes sense I don't see why class 2 or 3 shouldn't also be allowed.

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Anne Elk
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Anne Elk
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PostThu Jul 07, 2022 1:31 pm 
I'm kind of behind on this issue.  Are there designated bike trails?  Or does the state allow bikes wherever there's a hiking trail?  I was almost seriously injured by a yahoo on a bike going downhill while I was plugging along with a walking cast and a leashed dog. Not a fan of such mixed use.

IanB
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BigBrunyon
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BigBrunyon
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PostThu Jul 07, 2022 1:34 pm 
The main problem with the e bikes is the sheer speed and distance covered

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MultiUser
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Secret Agent Man
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PostThu Jul 07, 2022 2:00 pm 
Anne Elk wrote:
I'm kind of behind on this issue.  Are there designated bike trails?  Or does the state allow bikes wherever there's a hiking trail?  I was almost seriously injured by a yahoo on a bike going downhill while I was plugging along with a walking cast and a leashed dog. Not a fan of such mixed use.

Some trails have bikes as the primary users, like at East Tiger and Raging River - technically you can hike on those trails but it's not really a good idea on some of the faster downhill trails, since the riders usually don't expect to see hikers. The climbing trails there are okay to hike on since the MTBers climb a lot more slowly, anyone who hikes on the fast downhill bike trails is being impolite at best and dangerous at worst.

Some trails are explicitly mixed-use, and on those bikes should be prepared for other users and ride appropriately. Then there are some trails that are explicitly no-bike.

This survey isn't about expanding where bikes can go, it's about whether e-bikes should be allowed to go anywhere normal bikes can currently go, and how powerful of an e-bike should be allowed.

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Anne Elk
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Anne Elk
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PostThu Jul 07, 2022 2:10 pm 
Secret Agent Man wrote:
...technically you can hike on those trails but it's not really a good idea on some of the faster downhill trails, since the riders usually don't expect to see hikers. The climbing trails there are okay to hike on since the MTBers climb a lot more slowly, anyone who hikes on the fast downhill bike trails is being impolite at best and dangerous at worst. ...Some trails are explicitly mixed-use ...

So, they're labeled at the TH so that hikers would expect to see bikers?

Secret Agent Man wrote:
This survey isn't about expanding where bikes can go, it's about whether e-bikes should be allowed to go anywhere normal bikes can currently go, and how powerful of an e-bike should be allowed.

Seems to me that whatever would be decided, it would be mostly unenforceable, due to sheer lack of manpower or any way to register a complaint re scofflaws.

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Secret Agent Man
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Secret Agent Man
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PostThu Jul 07, 2022 2:38 pm 
Anne Elk wrote:
So, they're labeled at the TH so that hikers would expect to see bikers?

Yes, they have signs at the trail that look like this (no hikers)


And this (hikers allowed but with caution)


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Tom
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Tom
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PostThu Jul 07, 2022 2:43 pm 
Secret Agent Man wrote:
This survey isn't about expanding where bikes can go, it's about whether e-bikes should be allowed to go anywhere normal bikes can currently go, and how powerful of an e-bike should be allowed.

Ha, you said the silent part out loud.  But you're right, it's really a way to limit power.  The problem is the difference in 1, 2, 3 classification has nothing to do with power.  All can all have the same power (up to 750W nominal).  It's just that class 2 can have a throttle, and class 3 doesn't stop assisting at 20 mph, it cuts assist at 28 mph.

Opus
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Randito
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Randito
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PostThu Jul 07, 2022 2:52 pm 
East Tiger has numerous  "biker only/downhill only" trails.  The mountain bike community has put a lot of effort into building these trails from scratch.   The nature of "downhill only" trails is such that they are rather lousy for hiking usage , even if there was no possibility of a mountain bike rider swooping by at high speed.

There are also designated "uphill routes" where hikers are welcomed.

IME East Tiger is nice place to go hiking with my dog, as off leash usage is permitted and the cyclists I've encountered have been friendly-- to the point of offering the dog treats and pets.

I've also ridden there on my MTB, only the very easy trails,  but I can really appreciate why there are downhill only trails -- it way more fun and safer if you don't have to worry about someone blocking the trail around a corner.

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altasnob
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altasnob
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PostThu Jul 07, 2022 3:52 pm 
Anne Elk wrote:
Seems to me that whatever would be decided, it would be mostly unenforceable, due to sheer lack of manpower or any way to register a complaint re scofflaws.

Exactly. Every year, the line between biking and ebiking becomes more and more blurred. My friend who is a hard core mountain biker in Bellingham (one of the new mountain bike capitals of Earth) has a emountain bike and a regular bike. He says everyone up there is moving towards ebiking. The latest trend is ebikes where the battery can be removed so you can turn your ebike back into a regular bike if you want. As ebikes become cheaper, there really will be no reason to not get an ebike over a regular bike. There is nothing the government can do to stop this so might as well embrace it.

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treeswarper
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treeswarper
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PostThu Jul 07, 2022 4:22 pm 
I rode my Galoompa loompa bike around on the Perrygin lake trail and I think that may have been verboten.  I got passed by a mountain biker on an acoustic bike.  The horror!

I'll look at the survey.  I gave input on a survey done by the state a while ago.  So many are making assumptions and decisions who know NOTHING about ebikes.  That's the real problem.

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What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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