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Randito
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Randito
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PostMon Jul 18, 2022 9:51 pm 
Tom wrote:
The whole class 1-3 regulation is flawed and doesn't make any sense in reality.
Agreed, From an enforcement point of view, how is an officer supposed to tell the difference between class 1,2 and 3? Especially since the control software can be hacked to override the factory settings. If a LE officer supposed to be a computer engineer to determine if the unit has been hacked? Setting the regulations based on motor wattage seems more sensible, but again how is an officer supposed to enforce that? The only thing that is really enforceable is observed behavior and speed limits, but doing that requires money for personal to do actual patrolling. Nothing is going to change until there is maiming/fatal accident and a big lawsuit against the agency administering the trail.

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Ski
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PostMon Jul 18, 2022 10:02 pm 
@ Tom - ^ Thank you very much for clarifying what I've been thinking all along: This "Class 1", "Class 2", "Class 3" nonsense is just that in the context of establishing "limits" if in fact the only difference is that the "Class 3" is capable of a slightly higher speed. I would challenge anyone on this forum to tell me that they could, from a standing, stationary, position, tell the difference between a vehicle moving by them at 15 mph or 20 mph or 25 mph or 30 mph. We like to believe we can, but the reality is that we are physically incapable of functioning the same way that a radar gun does. A young girl zipped by me earlier today on a little two-wheeled "scooter" thing. Those are the scariest, because they make almost no sound and move alarmingly fast. (The huge grin on her face when she whizzed past me was priceless.) The absolutely impossible and impracticable notion of enforcing some "rule" which allows one type of "ebike" but prohibits another type of "ebike" is a fool's errand. I have to wonder whose idea this was - to make some distinction between "classes" of "ebikes" - and then propose that we should implement regulations that would, in fact, be impossible to enforce. Is this all really as crazy as it appears to be, or am I really missing something here? The longer this discussion goes on (and it has been going on for a long time in various threads), the more I am convinced this is more about money and "turf war" than it is about public safety or environmental concerns. Sounds to me like the best possible outcome would be for both DNR and WDFW to allow these "ebikes" to be used on any trail that is currently open to cyclists. That option puts more users on trails, puts more users outdoors, generates more revenue in the form of "Discover Pass" sales, and generates more revenue in the form of sales taxes paid on purchases of "ebikes". What's not to like? Again: am I missing something here?

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Ski
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PostMon Jul 18, 2022 10:20 pm 
For reference: The (very short) section of paved road I walk is marked in purple on the map. Note that it's at the far end of the peninsula - far away from the eyes of law enforcement - and is the stretch of road where one can really "open it up". The fastest moving vehicles (on that section) are the pedal-powered road bikes (usually high-end models with super-skinny wheels) and the two-wheeled motorized scooters (like the one mentioned just above.) The "ebikes" on that stretch are not generally moving at high rates of speed. I think it's appropriate to display this graphically. Do you use your turn signals even when there's nobody around to see? Do you obey the speed limits when you know John Law isn't watching? This is the reality I see on the ground every day. I've been walking down at the Park since 1998 when I moved out here to the north end.

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BigBrunyon
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PostMon Jul 18, 2022 11:28 pm 
Look just get them out of my way!!

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Tom
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PostTue Jul 19, 2022 12:33 am 
Ski, the intent of the class system may have been to differentiate power, just didn't turn out that way. Refer to 2001 "Consumer Product Safety Act" definition of low speed electric bicycle: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/2085 "Low-speed electric bicycles are defined as two- or three-wheeled vehicles with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph." It's a shame they didn't stick with that because it doesn't prevent ebikes from having throttle or providing assist above 20 mph. Instead the states enacted this silly 3 class system, 'cuz we need to regulate people that (gasp) might use throttle to get going or keep going or pedal hard enough they could exceed 20 mph on roads with help from the motor.

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Ski
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PostTue Jul 19, 2022 6:11 am 
Okay, now I'm confused... so a "Class 1" is a "low speed electric bicycle", and a "Class 2" is also a "low speed electric bicycle" (if I am understanding this correctly.) So what does that make the "Class 3" ? a "high speed electric bicycle" ?? confused.gif

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Randito
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Randito
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PostTue Jul 19, 2022 6:24 am 
I speculate that the class 1, 2 and 3 system came from the industry as a mechanism for facilitating adjustments to regulations in various venues to permit eBike usage. A cautious city board might vote to permit only class 1 eBikes on city bike paths for example, many city boards might permit class 1 and 2 and with class 3 being the "oh no that that's too much" option.

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treeswarper
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PostTue Jul 19, 2022 7:02 am 
I'm thinking Europe has a big say in this. From my reading, some countries there actually have enough police to enforce the ebike rules, and they have confiscated bikes that have had the limiter hacked. Apparently, their cops are more educated in what to look for. France comes to mind. Then NYC had a ban on all ebikes for some time. Yet there have been bike shops selling them during the ban. Propel ebikes has a few videos on that. Their channel may have some answers. I haven't had coffee yet so can't elaborate on that. Propel Youtube channel

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treeswarper
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PostTue Jul 19, 2022 7:17 am 
This might give an inkling of help. Don't Be The Hoverboard

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CS
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PostTue Jul 19, 2022 7:18 am 
These guys didn’t get the memo on classes, 40mph, even 60mph: https://hpcbikes.com/pages/electricbikes

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treeswarper
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PostTue Jul 19, 2022 7:20 am 
And a lot of discussion of regulations here: Discussion

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PostTue Jul 19, 2022 8:11 am 
Ken M - in one of the discussion forums cited just above by treeswarper wrote:
So long as some want to cling to the concept that an compliant "low speed electric bicycle" (as defined by HR727 which passed one vote short of congressional consensus in 2002 defining that they are bicycles and not motorized vehicles) is a motorized vehicle this brain-dead debate will continue. We have to thank People for Bikes accepting lobby money to push the 3-class system adding to the complexity and confusion. An LSEB was supposed to be the equivalent of a bicycle so that states would "use" regulate them as such...not go about redefining what they are in senseless classes that make people think there is a real difference between a class 1 and 2 (anyone with a synapse would realize it would be simple to have a throttle that only functions when the pedals are rotating so that would make it a Class 1 pedal-assist compliant ebike but the assist would actually be 100% controlled by the throttle). My guess is that not one person on the rule making side of this has even read HR727 or has any clue about the early efforts by Dr. Currie to get that legislation passed. Again, it passed ONE VOTE short of full congressional consensus so the states spoke at that time that an LSEB as to be a bike. The fact that 20 years later this is still being debated is just insane and pointless (only after ebikes became very viable urban mobility solutions did the auto and oil companies throw lobby money at bike advocacy groups to neuter ebike potential). Lawmakers always feel they need to screw with things. This was settled so leave it alone.
^ Is this guy on point? Sounds to me like he IS, in which case all this "Class 1", "Class 2", "Class 3" stuff is, as Tom notes above, pure horseshit. @CS - I'm a bit puzzled by the models shown on the page you cited. How can those vehicles - having those advertised speed capabilities, not be classified as "electric motorcycles" and therefore subject to NHTSA regulations? Did I miss something? Or are these guys somehow flying under the radar? The more of this I read, the more this is sounding like there have been some major blunders made along the way in respect to how these devices are "classified".

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CS
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PostTue Jul 19, 2022 8:31 am 
Ski wrote:
@CS - I'm a bit puzzled by the models shown on the page you cited. How are those vehicles - having those advertised speed capabilities, not be classified as "electric motorcycles" and therefore subject to NHTSA regulations? Did I miss something? Or are these guys somehow flying under the radar? The more of this I read, the more this is sounding like there have been some major blunders made along the way in respect to how these devices are "classified".
Only thing I could find was in their terms and conditions: Systems above 750W that are capable of more than 20 MPH are NOT able to be legally ridden on streets according to federal laws in the United States and many other countries. It is up to the end user to comply with all laws pertaining to the use of these high powered machines. I doubt that’s enough legal protection, but amusingly police seem to be into high powered eBikes. So seems typically how our laws work, you can get it, but can’t use it maybe? https://us.delfastbikes.com/top-cop

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Cyclopath
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PostTue Jul 19, 2022 9:18 am 
You guys need 750 watts to go 20 mph??? huh.gif confused.gif lol.gif

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Randito
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PostTue Jul 19, 2022 9:26 am 
treeswarper wrote:
Then NYC had a ban on all ebikes for some time. Yet there have been bike shops selling them during the ban.
My son had his cargo bike upgraded to electric in a shop in Harlem a while ago. eBikes of various configuration and performance are endemic in the city, and not just by food delivery people. When a food delivery person crashes , typically the police confiscate their eBike as it is illegal. But there isn't a lot of police chasing down illegal eBikes. Similarly in the summer swarms of dirt bikes and ORVs zoom up and down the avenues, most pulling wheelies for many blocks. In two years living in NYC, I saw the police chase a swarm of ORVs, just once. Of the group of a couple dozen , they managed to catch one, when the rider crashed into a car while the ORV emerging from an alley that they had ducked into in an effort to evade the police.

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