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Cyclopath Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012 Posts: 7720 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:00 pm
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catsp wrote: | That last exchange is why for the survey I voted against all ebike riders. They appear to be a divisive group. |
I vote (in this survey, and generally) for more access for eBikes because it's better for everybody that more people use them. Bikes are one of the most energy efficient firms of transportation known to mankind, and our world is falling apart because of our profligate use of energy. Replacing car trips with eBike trips is a big step in the right direction, and encouraging people to want to own eBikes is what we should be doing.
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Cyclopath Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012 Posts: 7720 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Sat Jul 16, 2022 9:14 pm
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Tom wrote: | Right, you mentioned torque, that's why I pointed out the wide variation among ebike motors. A manufacturer warranting a component for ebieke use would consider the range as opposed to the torque put out by the lightest motor systems. The Specialized SL (super light) motor only puts out 35 nm of torque, whereas a typical "250W" euro spec might put out closer to 70 nm, and some 750W mid drives as high as 120-160 nm.
Just for grins, I looked at what wheelset Specialized put in their high end analog MTBs. It's the same Roval Traverse SL wheelset. Shrug. |
For what it's worth, when a bike isn't sufficient for a rider's needs it is always the rear wheel that fails. The must common failure mode is popping spokes. Probably the second most common is the rim cracking at the spoke holes. Fatigue cycles have more to do with demise than peak torque forces. Remember: power is torque vector times angular velocity. There's no free lunch here, dramatically increasing power even without increasing torque still stresses a wheel (and parts of a frame to a lesser extent) in a way that leads to problems in the real world.
I don't know why we're talking about what wheels come with different bikes. The ones that came with my bike are gathering dust in the laundry room. I'm talking about what the lowest weight a rideable wheel for each platform is to demonstrate that eBike wheels are heavier than acoustic bike ones. Because this whole sub topic is about the unavoidable fact of eBikes needing to be heavier.
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FiveNines Member
Joined: 01 Oct 2010 Posts: 526 | TRs | Pics
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Cyclopath wrote: | Competitive Cyclist has a set of Industry Nine 29er wheels at 1 kg for less than a grand.
<snip>
I'm a gravel road cyclist primarily so I'm riding wide rims but also deep ones for aerodynamic benefit on the pavement. I ride Enve 4.5 ARs. |
Did you mean rim only weight? Single wheel? I can't find any 29 wheel set under 1500g, at any price, on competitive cyclist. The ENVE wheel set you linked comes in at about 2275g, not counting spokes, and at a price tag significantly above $1k.
Below is screen shot of weight specs from your link. The hubs alone weigh almost 1.5kg.
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dixon Member
Joined: 24 Apr 2020 Posts: 176 | TRs | Pics
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dixon
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Sat Jul 16, 2022 10:24 pm
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Cyclopath wrote: | Replacing car trips with eBike trips is a big step in the right direction, and encouraging people to want to own eBikes is what we should be doing. |
I agree, however in practice I see people buying e bikes purely for recreational purposes and not modifying their lifestyle in any way. This seems a net negative since energy, materials, chemicals etc were used to produce and ship the bike thousands of miles from China but it didn't replace a means of transport it's just another thing that now exists.
MultiUser, Chief Joseph
MultiUser, Chief Joseph
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Lazyhiker Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2022 Posts: 224 | TRs | Pics
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dixon wrote: | Cyclopath wrote: | Replacing car trips with eBike trips is a big step in the right direction, and encouraging people to want to own eBikes is what we should be doing. |
I agree, however in practice I see people buying e bikes purely for recreational purposes and not modifying their lifestyle in any way. This seems a net negative since energy, materials, chemicals etc were used to produce and ship the bike thousands of miles from China but it didn't replace a means of transport it's just another thing that now exists. |
Most ebikers that I see on FS trails or multiuse paths still haul their bikes to the trailhead with their vehicle. Ebikes aren’t cutting down on car trips in any meaningful way for the most part.
I say keep motorized bikes on designated motorized trails.
MultiUser, philfort, dixon
MultiUser, philfort, dixon
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treeswarper Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 11276 | TRs | Pics Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Sun Jul 17, 2022 7:48 am
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Lazyhiker wrote: | dixon wrote: | Cyclopath wrote: | Replacing car trips with eBike trips is a big step in the right direction, and encouraging people to want to own eBikes is what we should be doing. |
I agree, however in practice I see people buying e bikes purely for recreational purposes and not modifying their lifestyle in any way. This seems a net negative since energy, materials, chemicals etc were used to produce and ship the bike thousands of miles from China but it didn't replace a means of transport it's just another thing that now exists. |
Most ebikers that I see on FS trails or multiuse paths still haul their bikes to the trailhead with their vehicle. Ebikes aren’t cutting down on car trips in any meaningful way for the most part.
I say keep motorized bikes on designated motorized trails. |
Lazy Hiker: Do you walk to trailheads from your home? Where is your hiking gear made? It might be easier to find the latter made in the USA than a bike. Is your hiking gear made from wool and leather?
As for cutting down on car trips, I pretty much exclusively use my ebike for groceries and errands around town. I tend to combine riding for exercise and fun with going to Safeway, for example. Safeway is usually a 4 mile round trip and the other day, I spontaneously turned it into a 13 mile round trip. Would have gone farther but I didn't take any water with me so cut it short. Winter is a problem because I do not want to deal with both ice and cars at the same time. We have no bicycle lanes or trails here. Zilch. it is risky to ride in good weather because folks here are not used to sharing the road, or even stopping at a red light to check for pedestrians before turning right.
There have been surveys done showing that more people would ride bicycles if it was made safer to do so.
I'm seeing more ebikes in this area. Most all are ridden by men who are not pedaling so their bikes have throttles. I'm also seeing more small motorcycles and one tiny golf cart style electric car.
The hurdle to most folks replacing car trips with a bicycle is safety. You might want to lobby for more bicycle lanes and trails if you really are concerned about getting people out of their cars. Maybe get out of your car if you have one.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Cyclopath Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012 Posts: 7720 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:48 am
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FiveNines wrote: | Did you mean rim only weight? Single wheel? I can't find any 29 wheel set under 1500g, at any price, on competitive cyclist. The ENVE wheel set you linked comes in at about 2275g, not counting spokes, and at a price tag significantly above $1k.
Below is screen shot of weight specs from your link. The hubs alone weigh almost 1.5kg.
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I'll try to find the I9 ones later, again I wouldn't buy them, there's better stuff on the market.
The Enve wheels I ride are 1,500 g for built wheel set. You're misreading their specs, it's the entire wheels with those hubs that come in at that weight. You can have them built with other hubs instead and see the final, grand total weight with the kit of your choosing before you order. I went with DT Swiss hubs because they're excellent.
I mean, to clarify, I own the wheels, and I also own a scale.
Yeah, Enve doesn't make budget wheels, it's kind of right there in the name. They're the answer to "which wheels do you use," somebody asked me. How do you think what I chose to spend on wheels is related to the claim that eBikes can be built with zero weight penalty?
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Cyclopath Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012 Posts: 7720 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:53 am
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dixon wrote: | Cyclopath wrote: | Replacing car trips with eBike trips is a big step in the right direction, and encouraging people to want to own eBikes is what we should be doing. |
I agree, however in practice I see people buying e bikes purely for recreational purposes and not modifying their lifestyle in any way. This seems a net negative since energy, materials, chemicals etc were used to produce and ship the bike thousands of miles from China but it didn't replace a means of transport it's just another thing that now exists. |
Gasoline continues to get more expensive. Maybe at $7.50 a light bulb comes on and people realize that thing that's fun to ride on the trail can also get to Safeway and back. And it's easy to park! That's probably more likely for people who own eBikes than people who don't. So I'm fine with the carrot coming first.
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Cyclopath Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012 Posts: 7720 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Sun Jul 17, 2022 8:57 am
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Lazyhiker wrote: | Most ebikers that I see on FS trails or multiuse paths still haul their bikes to the trailhead with their vehicle. Ebikes aren’t cutting down on car trips in any meaningful way for the most part. |
I drive my human powered bike around to ride it in nicer scenery. I really love riding some of the dirt FS roads above Blewett Pass. I also ride it around town instead of driving when it makes sense to. Traffic and parking stop being problems, I have fun, it improves my fitness, and burns calories.
You seen to think a bike can be used for fun or for utility, and never the two shall meet.
Opus
Opus
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DadFly Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2012 Posts: 402 | TRs | Pics Location: Redmond |
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DadFly
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Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:15 am
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My wife and I bought Rad ebikes last year. They are low end type 2. We do haul them to have fun. We rode the Iron horse trail up and back yesterday. We also use them to go to the store, work and run errands. It has cut my gas costs 75% weekly.
We have to pick our routes carefully in Redmond since there is so much construction. There are also places that have no bike lane at all like 24th through the Overlake area. But we figured it out and have good routes we follow and avoid the unsafe routes. I see a lot of ebikes at the store.
We have about a dozen friends we ride with regularly. Half have ebikes. We also see more and more ebikes on the bike trails. It gets people out. Most of them pedal at a low assist level. I see very few just throttle.
"May you live in interesting times"
Cyclopath
"May you live in interesting times"
Cyclopath
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Cyclopath Faster than light
Joined: 20 Mar 2012 Posts: 7720 | TRs | Pics Location: Seattle |
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Cyclopath
Faster than light
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Sun Jul 17, 2022 9:49 am
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DadFly wrote: | We rode the Iron horse trail up and back yesterday. |
Got any pics?
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Lazyhiker Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2022 Posts: 224 | TRs | Pics
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treeswarper wrote: | Lazyhiker wrote: | dixon wrote: | Cyclopath wrote: | Replacing car trips with eBike trips is a big step in the right direction, and encouraging people to want to own eBikes is what we should be doing. |
I agree, however in practice I see people buying e bikes purely for recreational purposes and not modifying their lifestyle in any way. This seems a net negative since energy, materials, chemicals etc were used to produce and ship the bike thousands of miles from China but it didn't replace a means of transport it's just another thing that now exists. |
Most ebikers that I see on FS trails or multiuse paths still haul their bikes to the trailhead with their vehicle. Ebikes aren’t cutting down on car trips in any meaningful way for the most part.
I say keep motorized bikes on designated motorized trails. |
Lazy Hiker: Do you walk to trailheads from your home? Where is your hiking gear made? It might be easier to find the latter made in the USA than a bike. Is your hiking gear made from wool and leather?
As for cutting down on car trips, I pretty much exclusively use my ebike for groceries and errands around town. I tend to combine riding for exercise and fun with going to Safeway, for example. Safeway is usually a 4 mile round trip and the other day, I spontaneously turned it into a 13 mile round trip. Would have gone farther but I didn't take any water with me so cut it short. Winter is a problem because I do not want to deal with both ice and cars at the same time. We have no bicycle lanes or trails here. Zilch. it is risky to ride in good weather because folks here are not used to sharing the road, or even stopping at a red light to check for pedestrians before turning right.
There have been surveys done showing that more people would ride bicycles if it was made safer to do so.
I'm seeing more ebikes in this area. Most all are ridden by men who are not pedaling so their bikes have throttles. I'm also seeing more small motorcycles and one tiny golf cart style electric car.
The hurdle to most folks replacing car trips with a bicycle is safety. You might want to lobby for more bicycle lanes and trails if you really are concerned about getting people out of their cars. Maybe get out of your car if you have one. |
Good questions, yes I walk to hike a lot of the time and I bike from home to trailheads a lot. I do sometimes drive to trailheads for hiking and biking as well.
I responded because it was posited that ebikes would get people out of their vehicles which doesn’t seem to be the case. Of course there are exceptions, good for you using your ebike for utility.
I don’t really buy the argument that it’s okay to use a motorized ebike on non motorized trails because it gets people out and/or they only use a little assist.
Safety on the road doesn’t concern me, I’ve commuted on roads in rural and urban areas for decades without the use of bike lanes for the most part. I’ve commuted by bicycle year round in Wenatchee, yes in ice and snow with no bike lanes. No problems.
These are issues that really have nothing to do with the use of mopeds on non motorized trails. There are lots of trails that are open to motorized use and that’s the appropriate place for ebikes.
MultiUser
MultiUser
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Lazyhiker Member
Joined: 08 Jul 2022 Posts: 224 | TRs | Pics
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Cyclopath wrote: | I drive my human powered bike around to ride it in nicer scenery. I really love riding some of the dirt FS roads above Blewett Pass. I also ride it around town instead of driving when it makes sense to. Traffic and parking stop being problems, I have fun, it improves my fitness, and burns calories.
You seen to think a bike can be used for fun or for utility, and never the two shall meet. |
You’re guessing a lot about what I think without knowing anything about me.
I’ve used my bicycle for utility for decades and often combined recreational riding with commuting and running errands. I’ve even used my bike to ride to trailheads for hiking. I’m not anti ebike, I think they’re great tools for commuting and running errands and just general transportation. I don’t think any motorized transport should be used on designated non motorized trails. There are wilderness trails that I would love to ride and they would be totally appropriate for bicycles and leave no damage but I’m not going to ride them because it’s illegal. The FS defines a bicycle as a solely human powered two wheel vehicle in regards to non motorized multi use trails, I don’t have a problem with that. I happily share motorized trails whether on foot or bike.
dixon, Chief Joseph
dixon, Chief Joseph
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treeswarper Alleged Sockpuppet!
Joined: 25 Dec 2006 Posts: 11276 | TRs | Pics Location: Don't move here |
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treeswarper
Alleged Sockpuppet!
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Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:32 pm
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Lazy Hiker, this is NOT about Forest Service land. This is about state DNR managed lands. Don't confuse people. I do see nothing that could be wrong with ebikes on many of the Used To Be Roads Or Skid Trails that are now called trails. That's what a lot of "trails" were. The Loup area is full of them.
And, I commuted to work on a acoustical bike when it was safe and practical to do so. I've always been a bicycle user, it's just that riding up some of the long hills around here is not fun--I have to push, so I quit riding. My ebike gives me just enough assistance to get up those hills without having to get off and push. Nobody likes to push. I've stressed my body out enough over the years, I don't need to "feel the burn" anymore or prove anything, or concern myself about so called "cheating" or???
Wenatchee is the worst town I ever rode a bike in. I actually was purposely run off the road a couple of times while riding on streets designated as bicycle routes. There were no bike lanes then. It's like the people were blind. I commuted to WVC on a Sears 10 speed--I did not own a car so the bike was my transportation.
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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DadFly Member
Joined: 02 Jul 2012 Posts: 402 | TRs | Pics Location: Redmond |
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DadFly
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Sun Jul 17, 2022 12:34 pm
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Iron Horse trail on ebikes. We all pedaled both ways. Power assist 1 of 5. 0 coming down. Averaged 10mph up. 16mph down. I was passed by a few conventional bikes both ways.
"May you live in interesting times"
Cyclopath
"May you live in interesting times"
Cyclopath
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