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Chief Joseph
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Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 7697 | TRs | Pics
Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
Bear spray is for amateurs and just adds unnecessary weight. I hiked with a newbie hiker a few years back up in Leroy Basin, they lost their bear spray under the glacier, good riddance, but they did leave bad rubbish as it was irretrievable. Paranoia will Destroy Ya. 
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
 CS
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
CS
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Tom
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Joined: 15 Dec 2001
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Tom
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 Thu Jul 21, 2022 1:58 pm |
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| Quote: | | just adds unnecessary weight |
You could say that about more than just bear spray. Comfy pillow helps me sleep better in these parts.
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Chief Joseph
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Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 7697 | TRs | Pics
Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
I was hiking once with a new-ish female hiker in the Olympics once and we were hiking out in the dark. She mentioned that she was afraid of bears, especially in the dark. I told her there was nothing to worry about. She freaked out when I began calling "Here Bear".....she said, "Don't do that"....I said, what, you think the bears will actually come when called?". 
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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timberghost
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Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 1324 | TRs | Pics
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Did they? 
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gb
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Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 6307 | TRs | Pics
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gb
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Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:24 am |
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| Vertec wrote: | |
A must read article. Blows the “Bear spray is more effective than… [other]..” argument right out of the water.
The most egregious faults are excluding failure to deploy incidents from the bear spray study, but including them in the firearm study. Reminds me of all the times I’ve seen people carrying bear spray with the zip tie still securing the safety.
Also, including incidents of active bear management by wildlife “officials” in the bear spray study beings up an interesting point. Suggests we “common” folk should also be spraying even curious bears to condition them to avoid humans. Because we all must “do our part” to be good stewards, right? |
This a pretty flawed and lame "elucidation" of "facts". Your last two editorial sentences suggest you are unable to digest information because of ingrown bias.
I would look to the studies themselves and not editorial comments on them. Clearly NPS Banff, Jasper, and Kootenay find Herrero's work to be valid as all of their policies in the parks are representative of Herrero's extensive studies.
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cdestroyer
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Joined: 14 Sep 2015
Posts: 1250 | TRs | Pics
Location: montana |
aw lawdy me. spray or gun??? well spray is good out to about 50 feet I guess. However double rifle in .450 nitro express is good out to about 100 yards and has been used to stop,,,elephant, rhino, african lion, hippo-- so I see no reason it would not stop a boar griz.. A bit more expensive then spray but a lot more effective at a much safer distance...hike with two or more in group and have one carry the gun and ammo..
and the reason I post this again,, you aint gonna kill no charging 800lb boar griz with a handgun, you may just assuade him to give up the charge with bear spray better still be fully aware of your surroundings at all time, make noise when you hike, if a bear is sighted then do the giant thing,make yourself appear larger, raise your arms stand on tippy toe, yell maybe throw rocks or sticks, use the bear spray as directed..
as to anyone actually getting killed by a bear, in that situation that person should have left the area.
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CS
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Joined: 04 Apr 2022
Posts: 176 | TRs | Pics
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CS
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Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:28 am |
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| gb wrote: | | I would look to the studies themselves and not editorial comments on them. Clearly NPS Banff, Jasper, and Kootenay find Herrero's work to be valid as all of their policies in the parks are representative of Herrero's extensive studies. |
It’s not Herrero’s studies, but Tom Smith’s, and he doesn’t dispute you can’t make a comparison:
“There was no thought of comparing the two [studies], though some do that,” says Tom Smith, who authored both reports, titled the “Efficacy of Bear Deterrent Spray in Alaska” and “Efficacy of Firearms for Bear Deterrence in Alaska.”
Yet many people—including me, obviously—have compared the results of those two studies. And that, according to Smith, was never his intention.
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BigBrunyon
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Joined: 19 Mar 2015
Posts: 1455 | TRs | Pics
Location: the fitness gyms!! |
What is often misunderstood about: BEAR SPRAY is this: what you're supposed to do is purchase large amounts so you can just discharge as you go. You should be discharging at regular intervals down the trail!!! Prefurably every 30-45 seconds. See, what you want to have is a nice general cloud built up in the area so you get the bears before they see you! That is what you're supposed to do with: BEAR SPRAY.
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Slim
This space for rent
Joined: 31 Aug 2004
Posts: 560 | TRs | Pics
Location: Falling off a turnip truck |
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Slim
This space for rent
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Fri Jul 22, 2022 10:59 am |
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| BigBrunyon wrote: | | What is often misunderstood about: BEAR SPRAY is this: what you're supposed to do is purchase large amounts so you can just discharge as you go. You should be discharging at regular intervals down the trail!!! Prefurably every 30-45 seconds. See, what you want to have is a nice general cloud built up in the area so you get the bears before they see you! That is what you're supposed to do with: BEAR SPRAY. |
| catsp wrote: | | For me, while I only have logic and common sense to back up the efficacy (and not scientific studies per se), I load the hollow point of my hollow points with capsaicin to get the best of both worlds. As it turns out, it also causes the bullet to emit a high pitched whistle upon firing, which logically likely adds to the deterrent effect. |
Are you two related ?
"Lean mean money-making-machines serving fiends"
"Lean mean money-making-machines serving fiends"
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Chief Joseph
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Joined: 10 Nov 2007
Posts: 7697 | TRs | Pics
Location: Verlot-Priest Lake |
I don't use either method, I just jump up on the Griz' back and ride him down the trail.
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
 cdestroyer
Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
cdestroyer
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gb
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Joined: 01 Jul 2010
Posts: 6307 | TRs | Pics
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gb
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Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:08 pm |
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| catsp wrote: | | I could be reading it incorrectly, but most bear spray I see specifically claim that it is a "non-lethal" deterrent. If people still die after using bear spray that seems like false advertising. |
How about guns, then. What if they fail as they have many times?
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CS
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Joined: 04 Apr 2022
Posts: 176 | TRs | Pics
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CS
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Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:28 pm |
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| gb wrote: | | catsp wrote: | | I could be reading it incorrectly, but most bear spray I see specifically claim that it is a "non-lethal" deterrent. If people still die after using bear spray that seems like false advertising. |
How about guns, then. What if they fail as they have many times? |
That's kind of the issue, there's no 100% solution, and we don't know a real number since the data sets are too small or incomplete. What we do know for certain, is there's "additional interests" people have around the public messaging. 
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mosey
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Joined: 18 Dec 2018
Posts: 163 | TRs | Pics
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mosey
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Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:52 pm |
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| BigBrunyon wrote: | | What is often misunderstood about: BEAR SPRAY is this: what you're supposed to do is purchase large amounts so you can just discharge as you go. You should be discharging at regular intervals down the trail!!! Prefurably every 30-45 seconds. See, what you want to have is a nice general cloud built up in the area so you get the bears before they see you! That is what you're supposed to do with: BEAR SPRAY. |
This is the ultralight strategy. Real outdoorsmen do this with a firearm. If you add 25lbs of ammo to your pack every time you hike, you'll be wrestling the bears off in no time without having to spray dangerous and ozone decaying aerosolizing chemicals and polluting our forests.
zimmertr
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Vertec
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Joined: 08 Sep 2018
Posts: 159 | TRs | Pics
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Vertec
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Fri Jul 22, 2022 7:38 pm |
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| gb wrote: | | Your last two editorial sentences |
My last two sentences were a joke.
I'll try to explain.
I read the studies. They were never meant to be used to compare spray vs. firearms in the context of self defense.
| gb wrote: | | Clearly NPS Banff, Jasper, and Kootenay find Herrero's work to be valid |
Yes, The bear spray study was done mainly for a wildlife management audience, which is specifically why it included incidents of wildlife managers using bear spray to actively seek and deter bears, which has nothing to do with self defense. That's also why it excluded "failure to deply" incidents, because wildlife managers using bear spray will actually use the bear spray to manage wildlife, not leave it in the truck.
If someone "buys" the bear spray study as gospel, then they should be seeking and spraying bears - because - that is what the study was trying to find out.
| gb wrote: | | How about guns, then. What if they fail as they have many times? |
This has been studied extensively, and contributes to training improvements. But that topic is restricted to a specific place elsewhere in the forum.
Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
Out There, carrying the self-evident truth I am endowed by my Creator with unalienable rights of self-defended Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.
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Bargainhunter
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Joined: 28 Sep 2021
Posts: 44 | TRs | Pics
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Vertec  CS |
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