Forum Index > Trail Talk > Baker-Snoqualmie New Fee Areas?
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Chief Joseph
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PostWed Aug 24, 2022 9:28 am 
BigBrunyon wrote:
I consider myself grandfathered in at my current rate!! Thus I ain't payin no increased fees!!! Consider this post to be my notice of what my rate is locked in at!!! Price as of TODAY!!!
I don't pay their fees ever, they can kiss my ass! No such thing here in north I dee Ho, just a better place in every way than warsh in ton. I bought some liquor here the other day, 80 bucks...5 dollar tax, whereas Wa robs you with a nearly 50% tax, communists!

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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dixon
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PostWed Aug 24, 2022 9:34 am 
Cyclopath wrote:
I wish we could just pay for this out of our taxes instead of this regressive business
We could have, but instead we're about to pay off student loans. I very much doubt that Mt Baker forest passes buy enough votes.

Chief Joseph
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Cyclopath
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PostWed Aug 24, 2022 9:36 am 
rolleyes.gif

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Schroder
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PostWed Aug 24, 2022 11:25 am 
kiliki wrote:
It was depressing to read the recent Everett Herald article where they tagged along with a ranger on the Mt Loop, and he said his days were basically taken up by picking up litter in the dispersed campsites, so he didn't have time for anything else. Why aren't we charging for those sites and managing them? The Puget Sound area is WAY to populous anymore to let it be a free for all.
You need to understand how we reached this point. Prior to the NW Forest Pass the Mountain Loop had a dozen or so small (5-10 site) campgrounds along the rivers with outhouses. It was the same in many areas of the Cascades and these were great places to take a family and tent camp. Some had picnic shelters. At some point someone decided that it wasn't cost effective to maintain these small campgrounds and instead cram everyone into large, crowded campgrounds - like Gold Basin - that they could justify charging fees. (Gold Basin is now closed due to slide hazard) The same mentality prevailed with trailheads. Get rid of small parking areas at the wide spot at the end of a logging road and build a massive parking lot with pit toilets where you could charge fees. Since they couldn't accomplish that everywhere, the Forest Service tried to require the NW Forest Pass/fees at every trailhead & was sued. They couldn't charge without some amenities. They proceeded to build pit toilets & place a picnic table at the larger trailheads and not require a pass at the ones they couldn't and develop those over time. That ranger that spends all his time over cleanup is doing it in all the campgrounds we lost. People continued to use those sites but no longer have outhouses or garbage cans. The first season they were removed, there was s#*t and toilet paper everywhere you stepped. I don't know what the solution is now with the number of people in the woods. There obviously aren't enough places to support the traffic. I do think they should rigorously support no parking areas & even get a fleet of tow trucks to impound vehicles - that would really generate some cash flow. If there's not enough parking, that means there's not enough room for you on the trail.

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Chief Joseph
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PostWed Aug 24, 2022 11:44 am 
There was an outhouse at the bottom of Deer Creek road and someone blew it up last year. For some strange reason the outhouse at the Sunrise Mine TH is locked up solid, maybe so no one will blow it up? flammable.gif

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.
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altasnob
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PostWed Aug 24, 2022 3:19 pm 
philfort wrote:
I don't mind buying an annual pass, but having to pay additional amounts in cash beyond that is a bit ridiculous. The place this happened to me was at the Soda Springs Campground: https://www.fs.usda.gov/recarea/okawen/recarea/?recid=58543 I wasn't camping, just parking and hopping onto a trail - note the day use fee of 5$, and also "Day use: No passes honored.". I drove past the "FEE SITE" sign and just ignored it, since I assumed I was good with my forest pass.
Bumping Lake just up the road from Soda Springs is $8 a day and NW Forest Pass is not honored there. I think the fact that both Bumping Lake and Soda Springs are very car popular camping spots leads the Forest Service to charge a day use fee and not honor the NW Forest Pass (cuts back on people with extra cars avoiding the extra vehicle fees by claiming "day use"). You can always avoid paying the fee by parking just before or beyond the sign that notifies you of the fee area.

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Kim Brown
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PostWed Aug 24, 2022 4:11 pm 
Schroder wrote:
The same mentality prevailed with trailheads. Get rid of small parking areas at the wide spot at the end of a logging road and build a massive parking lot with pit toilets where you could charge fees.
I think part of the reason they built large parking lots and closed forest roads is to concentrate parking areas for maintenance of fewer roads and to accommodate more hikers. They knew roads maintenance funds were getting slimmer and slimmer, so building dedicated trail heads like at Dickerman and linking it and Perry Creek to that parking lot was actually a wise move. Can't imagine the nightmare that would be today if DIckerman parking were still the wide spot in the road. Remember Perry Creek trailhead - the wide spot at the end of that road, and the headache that was? And that was before the onslaught of social media. Cutthroat Lakes - a headache. I don't mind the NWFP, never did mind it, but I have only known hiking utilizing the NWFP - it had just been implemented (in its demonstration mode) when I got here. But sites that charge a fee and don't honor the Pass - that's whacked out. As is requiring a NWFP for a little picnic site such as the White Chuck viewpoint (do they still require a pass to park there?). I hated telling a family they can't picnic there while on their Sunday drive.

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philfort
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PostWed Aug 24, 2022 4:22 pm 
altasnob wrote:
Bumping Lake just up the road from Soda Springs is $8 a day and NW Forest Pass is not honored there.
Well I actually have the Interagency Pass, which is "honored" ... but only by giving you a 50% discount. Which was what happened at Soda Springs too. How confusing is that? Hmm, let's look at what the Interagency Pass covers: https://www.fs.usda.gov/visit/passes-permits/recreation-fees-passes
Quote:
Honored nationwide at all Forest Service, National Park Service, Bureau of Land Management, Bureau of Reclamation, and US Fish & Wildlife Service sites charging entrance or standard amenity fees
Hmm, standard amenity fees... what are those? https://www.fs.usda.gov/visit/passes-permits#standard
Quote:
Standard Amenity Fees Examples: Picnic areas, developed trailheads, destination visitor centers Pass Coverage: Yes. Pass coverage does vary at concessionaire-managed sites
Ahh... there's the rub: "Pass coverage does vary at concessionaire-managed sites". What a mess...

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HikingBex
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PostWed Aug 24, 2022 4:31 pm 
philfort wrote:
"Pass coverage does vary at concessionaire-managed sites"
Are the locations being discussed concessionaire-managed though? I didn't think USFS used concessionaires confused.gif edit: I've only seen them at USFS campgrounds (not day-use sites) and in national parks

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Malachai Constant
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PostWed Aug 24, 2022 4:38 pm 
I know in Oregon a few years back some campground concessions were charging a daily parking fee at PCT trailheads accessed from campgrounds.

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altasnob
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PostWed Aug 24, 2022 4:49 pm 
HikingBex wrote:
philfort wrote:
"Pass coverage does vary at concessionaire-managed sites"
Are the locations being discussed concessionaire-managed though? I didn't think USFS used concessionaires confused.gif edit: I've only seen them at USFS campgrounds (not day-use sites) and in national parks
Both Bumping Lake and Soda Springs have campgrounds that are managed by a concessionaire. So I guess the fact that the concessionaire is managing the campground means the USFS feels emboldened to charge a day use fee that is not covered by NWFP or any of the other passes.

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HikingBex
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PostWed Aug 24, 2022 4:54 pm 
altasnob wrote:
Both Bumping Lake and Soda Springs have campgrounds that are managed by a concessionaire. So I guess the fact that the concessionaire is managing the campground means the USFS feels emboldened to charge a day use fee that is not covered by NWFP or any of the other passes.
What about Sauk Mountain, as is being proposed now? I think that's just a trailhead. Not trying to be nitpicky, just trying to understand how they're choosing where they can charge an extra fee for day use.

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treeswarper
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PostThu Aug 25, 2022 6:52 am 
Just a reminder of the history. Roads used to be repaired and maintained by having timber sales in the areas. No timber sales=massive funding cut for road maintenance. Add to this the politicians who campaigned to cut taxes, and a few "reorganizations" to meet each 10% reduction in funds and employees--only so many 10% cuts can take place. I use that figure because it has been quite common for political powers to implement. I know you don't like it, but that's how it was done. There is no easy answer now. Many former dispersed sites have had their access decommissioned. Our state population has grown, our vehicle access diminished. I have become jaded about any recreation being easy and affordable in the western part of the state.

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treeswarper
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PostThu Aug 25, 2022 7:03 am 
In a conversation with a 90 year old guy who started his career on the Early Winters Ranger District, he mentioned that many of the trails in the Pasayten were built using fire crews and the fire budget. Apparently, if there was time, he'd get the crews to work building trails after they'd finished their fire suppression. This guy had been involved in a heck of a lot of the trail building in that area and really knew the country. He died last year. Creative budgeting is now forbidden.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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JimmyBob
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PostThu Aug 25, 2022 3:55 pm 
Passes, both federal and state are not clear to everyone. The USFS fee rules never are consistent, take Summit lake trail head that requires the federal pass. There's no restroom, just a picnic table, the road is in disgusting shape. Just increase federal and state taxes, and get rid of all the fees/passes. It affects the lower income more. Just because someone worked for the federal government, in the military, they get a free lifetime pass. Equal for all please.

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