Forum Index > Trail Talk > Baker-Snoqualmie New Fee Areas?
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JimmyBob
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JimmyBob
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PostThu Aug 25, 2022 2:55 pm 
Passes, both federal and state are not clear to everyone. The USFS fee rules never are consistent, take Summit lake trail head that requires the federal pass. There's no restroom, just a picnic table, the road is in disgusting shape. Just increase federal and state taxes, and get rid of all the fees/passes. It affects the lower income more. Just because someone worked for the federal government, in the military, they get a free lifetime pass. Equal for all please.

Chief Joseph, Cyclopath, Secret Agent Man
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thunderhead
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PostThu Aug 25, 2022 8:52 pm 
Keep in mind that the fees at most of these trailheads are dwarfed by the costs of driving by most people to most of these trailheads. A person who cant pay a 5 dollar parking fee certainly cannot pay the 50 dollars to drive there. The parking fee is so much smaller than the typical driving cost it is irrelevant from any realistic budget perspective.

breadcrumb, philfort
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timberghost
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timberghost
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PostFri Aug 26, 2022 4:24 am 
Thumbs up!!

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puzzlr
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puzzlr
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PostMon Aug 29, 2022 10:29 pm 
I looked through the thread and didn't see this site linked where you can comment on the proposal. But the site doesn't actually link to a proposal itself as a PDF, just a map with the places where the fee changes are proposed. I keep up with all the MBS SOPA documents and it hasn't appeared in there yet, but maybe this isn't an "action". In my comment on the Dingford Creek trail I asked if the fee was in addition to the pass. The site reflects that I made a comment but the content isn't visible -- maybe it has to be reviewed before being shown. Pacific Northwest Region Recreation Fee Proposals
Screenshot of site
Screenshot of site
Here are the full lists in alphabetical order. Many of the actions I looked at are adding a $5/day fee. In some cases an existing fee is being eliminated. I only looked at a few, though. Mount Baker-Snoqualmie
  • Beaver Lake Trailhead
  • Cable Drop
  • Camp Brown
  • Deception Falls
  • Dingford Creek
  • Dutch Miller Gap
  • Evans Creek Campground
  • Evans Creek Group Campground
  • Frog Mountain Trailhead
  • Garfield Ledges Trailhead
  • Government Meadows Horse Camp
  • Jennifer Dunn
  • Lonesome Lake
  • Lower Sandy
  • Lower Sauk Boat Launch
  • Marblemount Boat Launch
  • Old Sauk Universal Access
  • Pratt Bar
  • Ranger Creek Campground
  • Ranger Creek Group Campground
  • Sauk Mtn
  • White Chuck Boat Launch
  • White Chuck Overlook
  • Youth-On-Age Nature Trail - I just tried to go here last weekend. It's locked and gated. Maybe that's why the proposal is to eliminate the fee here.
I'm mostly interested in the Middle Fork Snoqualmie changes:
  • Pratt River Bar, Camp Brown, Garfield Ledges, Dingford Creek - Fee Per Day: Current: $0 Proposed: $5. None of these sites have electricity or reliable cell service. I guess that means bringing exact change. There's some careless wording mistakes too -- for the Dingford Creek trailhead they say "It is about 18 miles from North Bend and is closed to motorized vehicles, bicycles and stock." That's news to me and everyone else who drives here.
  • Dutch Miller Gap trailhead (Hardscrabble horse camp) - Fee decrease from $5 to $0 (eliminated). Who knew there was a $5 fee here? Is that for horses? For camping? It's been inaccessible since the Dingford trailhead gate went up in 2007.
  • Curiously, the Taylor River (aka Snoqualmie Lake) trailhead isn't included
Gifford Pinchot
  • Blue Lake Orv Th
  • Burley Mountain Lookout
  • Cedar Creek Viewpoint Interp
  • Coldwater Lake Picnic And Boating
  • Cascade Peaks Interp Site
  • Cat Creek Chimney Campground
  • Cat Creek Ohv Area Permit
  • Chamber Lake Day Use Area
  • Chambers Lake Campground
  • Coldwater Science And Learning Center
  • Crest Camp Trailhead
  • Cultus Creek Campground
  • Donnybrook Interp
  • Falls Creek Falls Trailhead
  • Forlorn Lakes Campground
  • Gotchen Guard Station
  • Government Mineral Springs Campground
  • Government Mineral Springs Guard Station
  • Hemlock Recreation Area
  • Hummocks Th
  • June Lake Th
  • Johnston Ridge Observatory (Jro)
  • Loowit Interp
  • La Wis Wis Guard Station
  • Lewis River Horse Camp
  • Lower Falls Campground
  • Middle Falls Th
  • Marble Mountain
  • Marble Mountain Shelter
  • Mount Margaret Backcountry Permit
  • Mount St. Helens Climbing Pass
  • Mt. Adams Climbing Pass
  • Mt. Adams Horse Camp
  • Nisqually (Big Creek) Guard Station
  • Orr Creek
  • Peterson Cabin
  • Red Mountain Lookout
  • South Coldwater Th
  • Siouxon Trilhead
  • Snowgrass Trailhead
  • Trout Lake Creek Cg
  • Tillicum Campground
  • Twin Falls Camp
  • Wakepish
Mount Hood
  • Badger Lake Campground
  • Badger Lake Trailhead
  • Bonney Meadows
  • Bonney Meadows Trailhead
  • Clear Lake Butte Lookout
  • East Fork - Robinhood
  • Fifteen Mile
  • Fifteenmile Trailhead
  • Five Mile Butte Lookout
  • Keeps Mill
  • Little Badger Campground
  • Little Badger Trailhead
  • Little Fan Creek
  • Little John
  • Lolo Pass
  • Mccubbins Day Use Ohv
  • Mt. Hood Climbing Permit
  • Pegleg Falls
  • Polallie
  • Trillium Winter Yurt
  • Two Rivers
  • Underhill
  • Underhill Trailhead
  • White River Station

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altasnob
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altasnob
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PostTue Aug 30, 2022 6:33 am 
puzzlr wrote:
None of these sites have electricity or reliable cell service. I guess that means bringing exact change.
Aren't most payments these days done by writing down your credit/debit card info and putting that into a secured box? That's how it was at Deer Park campground a few weeks ago when I stayed there. There is no way the FS has the manpower to enforce all these fees at some pretty remote locations, so think of it as a voluntary $5 donation. If you really don't want to pay the fee, just park right before you go by the "fee area" sign. Years ago I went up Black Butte in Oregon not realizing it was a NW Forest Pass trailhead (forgot mine) and had no way to pay. A ranger was actually there and told me to do this to avoid having to pay. It's not illegal in any way and just requires an extra quarter (.5 round trip) mile hike. With the decrease in resource extraction in National Forests, we have to come up with other ways to generate revenue. Great America Outdoors Act addresses some of this but I understand that money is earmarked for very specific purposes. As someone who buys the inter agency pass (also NW Forest Pass) every year, I feel I get a tremendous value from my purchase. Too much value frankly. I should be paying more.

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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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PostTue Aug 30, 2022 8:49 am 
thunderhead wrote:
Keep in mind that the fees at most of these trailheads are dwarfed by the costs of driving by most people to most of these trailheads. A person who cant pay a 5 dollar parking fee certainly cannot pay the 50 dollars to drive there. The parking fee is so much smaller than the typical driving cost it is irrelevant from any realistic budget perspective.
And gas prices are dwarfed by rent, mortgage, etc, so by this logic nobody should even care about $20 per gallon. We know that isn't how the world works Turns out there's a thing called addition.

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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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PostTue Aug 30, 2022 8:53 am 
altasnob wrote:
Aren't most payments these days done by writing down your credit/debit card info and putting that into a secured box?
Does the Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard allow this? This sounds like a gift to criminals who are interested in credit card fraud.

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altasnob
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altasnob
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PostTue Aug 30, 2022 9:45 am 
Cyclopath wrote:
Does the Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard allow this? This sounds like a gift to criminals who are interested in credit card fraud.
What's different about this than writing your cc info and mailing it away, which has been going on for decades? Someone could break into the mailbox and steal your cc info just as easily as they could steal it from those metal lock boxes at trail heads? The benefits of not having to bring exact change with you to the mountains, and allowing the government collect fees where the government has decided it is pertinent to do so, far outweighs any credit card fraud risk. The only other option I see is an "on your honor" system where you promise to pay via cc on your computer/phone when you get back to internet. Like I mentioned, this is basically a voluntary system similar to fees on the light rail (where no one is there to make sure you paid).

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Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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PostTue Aug 30, 2022 10:12 am 
altasnob wrote:
Cyclopath wrote:
Does the Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard allow this? This sounds like a gift to criminals who are interested in credit card fraud.
What's different about this than writing your cc info and mailing it away, which has been going on for decades?
It's easier and more common for criminals to gain unauthorized access to an unattended box in the woods than from inside the postal system? Is this a real question?

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JVesquire
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JVesquire
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PostTue Aug 30, 2022 10:14 am 
At least in Snohomish County, I've seen the sheriff's office enforcing USFS parking rules.

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timberghost
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timberghost
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PostTue Aug 30, 2022 10:44 am 
Where

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altasnob
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altasnob
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PostTue Aug 30, 2022 10:45 am 
Cyclopath wrote:
It's easier and more common for criminals to gain unauthorized access to an unattended box in the woods than from inside the postal system? Is this a real question?
Leave it to Cyclopath to come in and say wait, wait, wait, guys, there might be one person who has their credit card info stolen so we can't do that. Never mind that person never actually suffers a loss because the credit card company reimburses them after they report the loss. I know sheltered folks like Cyclopath think crime is rampant in the National Forest but in reality, is an absolute drop in the bucket compared to the crime that occurs in the cities. Typical trailhead crime is committed by males, age 15 to 25, who are high out of their mind on methamphetamine and opiates. They do smash and grabs because that is all their drug riddled mind can come up with. If people are so horribly afraid that unknown to them, someone broke into the National Forest lock box and stole their cc info, when they get back from their hike they can wait a week or two and see if their cc transaction went through (which would suggest it wasn't stolen). They can look over their cc statement monthly to see if there are unusual transactions (you should be doing this already). Credit card fraud by unsophisticated criminals you see at National Forest trailheads is one of the smallest problems this world faces.

philfort
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philfort
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philfort
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PostTue Aug 30, 2022 11:03 am 
I don't understand why this can't just be incorporated into the NW Forest Pass, or some "fancy day use" add on (like the grooming addon to snopark permits). Remembering to carry small change, or having to write down my CC number at every place I stop along the Middle Fork, and fund some poor Forest Service employee to spend all day transcribing these just seems ridiculous.

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timberghost
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PostTue Aug 30, 2022 11:22 am 
Am I right in saying this is in addition to the Yearly for set pass? The purpose is to generate money for repairs and costs at these particular TH's

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philfort
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philfort
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PostTue Aug 30, 2022 11:35 am 
Yes, it sounds like it (since all these areas already require the NW Forest Pass or America The Beautiful). Camp Brown I can maybe understand, since there are a ton of nice picnic tables there - but in places like Pratt River Bar or Dingford Creek there's literally no infrastructure at all.

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