Forum Index > Trail Talk > Baker-Snoqualmie New Fee Areas?
 Reply to topic
Previous :: Next Topic
Author Message
Malachai Constant
Member
Member


Joined: 13 Jan 2002
Posts: 15646 | TRs | Pics
Location: Back Again Like A Bad Penny
Malachai Constant
Member
PostTue Aug 30, 2022 12:45 pm 
I have a candidate to add, Denny Creek trailhead and parking. This has been closed for years with an ambiguous sign about funding. It accessed extremely popular family hikes, Denny Creek water slide and Franklin Falls and has a good sized parking lot and two locked outhouses. Now the cars are parked well down the road and if people are not careful they have to exit at Snoqualmie West or make and illegal Uturn and drive down a one way road in the wrong direction.

"You do not laugh when you look at the mountains, or when you look at the sea." Lafcadio Hearn
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Cyclopath
Faster than light



Joined: 20 Mar 2012
Posts: 5990 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle
Cyclopath
Faster than light
PostTue Aug 30, 2022 1:31 pm 
altasnob wrote:
Leave it to Cyclopath to come in and say wait, wait, wait, guys, there might be one person who has their credit card info stolen so we can't do that. Never mind that person never actually suffers a loss because the credit card company reimburses them after they report the loss.
I asked whether what you describe the FS doing is allowed by the Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard. I understand that you have your own opinion on whether FS should honor rules when it isn't convenient for them to, but that isn't the question. Maybe somebody else knows the answer. PS - if you didn't want to be told what the difference between two things was, why did you ask?

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
neek
Member
Member


Joined: 12 Sep 2011
Posts: 2118 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle, WA
neek
Member
PostTue Aug 30, 2022 1:55 pm 
Cyclopath wrote:
Does the Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard allow this?
Good question. I don't see how it could be PCI compliant. This describes a slightly different scenario, but the drop box is kind of like a mailbox. "All mail orders should be received in security envelopes and routed to a single-purpose Mailbox in a PCI-compliant environment. Daily and by documented key management procedures, one of the two authorized key custodians must issue the Mailbox key and locked courier bag key from an encrypted, wall-mounted key storage box located in a secure processing room."

Cyclopath
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
hbb
Member
Member


Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 314 | TRs | Pics
hbb
Member
PostTue Aug 30, 2022 2:55 pm 
timberghost wrote:
Am I right in saying this is in addition to the Yearly for set pass? The purpose is to generate money for repairs and costs at these particular TH's
On the comment page linked earlier in the thread, a number of the trailheads subject to the proposed fee increases state "Annual Northwest Forest Passes and Full Suite of Interagency Passes would be honored." Not all trailheads have this same language. I can't tell whether this is by design, or just sloppiness. I suspect the latter. Meanwhile, the Forest Service Region 6 webpage for the Interagency Annual Pass explains that pass is honored at all USFS sites charging entrance or day use fees, linking through to a list of every site where a day use fee is currently charged: https://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r6/passes-permits/recreation/?cid=fsbdev2_027020

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Schroder
Member
Member


Joined: 26 Oct 2007
Posts: 6306 | TRs | Pics
Location: on the beach
Schroder
Member
PostTue Aug 30, 2022 3:40 pm 
neek wrote:
Cyclopath wrote:
Does the Payment Card Industry Data Security Standard allow this?
Good question. I don't see how it could be PCI compliant. This describes a slightly different scenario, but the drop box is kind of like a mailbox. "All mail orders should be received in security envelopes and routed to a single-purpose Mailbox in a PCI-compliant environment. Daily and by documented key management procedures, one of the two authorized key custodians must issue the Mailbox key and locked courier bag key from an encrypted, wall-mounted key storage box located in a secure processing room."
Yeah, I wouldn't write my credit card info on a piece of paper and drop it in a box in the woods. I was recently at a National Parks Campground (Heart O' the Hills) and they wanted you to do the same thing to pay for a campsite. Fortunately they had the option of paying online & there was a cell signal there.

Cyclopath
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Kim Brown
Member
Member


Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts: 6522 | TRs | Pics
Kim Brown
Member
PostTue Aug 30, 2022 3:59 pm 
catsp wrote:
I was under the impression that a fee cannot be charged unless all these amenities are present:
This proposal is different from the Northwest Forest Pass. At least I think it is. The poor messaging of the USFS doesn't make it clear, but it looks like the proposal is to charges fees to some sites not subject to the NWFP, which means it doesn't matter if there are any amenities. So basically they are proposing to levy fees at some sites and they want to know what we think about it. Doesn't sound very well planned, does it.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Kim Brown
Member
Member


Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts: 6522 | TRs | Pics
Kim Brown
Member
PostTue Aug 30, 2022 5:40 pm 
How are people determining what this fee actually is? I clicked on the link puzzlr posted and it says nothing except that there is a $5 fee for the sites listed. Nothing else. I see the articles posted, but where does that information come from? I just made up my assumption based on absolutely nothing; certainly not based on the USFS public comment page about the fee, which says nothing, as Schroeder pointed out in the original post. The USFS isn't giving us information in order to make an informed comment. I guess that will be my comment....? confused.gif

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
Kim Brown
Member
Member


Joined: 13 Jul 2009
Posts: 6522 | TRs | Pics
Kim Brown
Member
PostTue Aug 30, 2022 9:55 pm 
Ok I see it now, thanks! The info you gave was helpful. I guess that instruction got lost on my small phone screen. Now : is there a full narrative about the fees that I can't find? uhoh.gif

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
timberghost
Member
Member


Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 1084 | TRs | Pics
timberghost
Member
PostWed Aug 31, 2022 5:44 am 
So we are sure its going to be a no cash transaction? I never read that. I know putting $5 in an envelope and putting it in a box is asking for trouble as far as theft. If you prepay and get to the trail head and find its over crowded or no parking or even cant get to the TH are you going to get reimbursed? Of coarse not. Just increase the NW forest Pass by $5 and make up the cost.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
timberghost
Member
Member


Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 1084 | TRs | Pics
timberghost
Member
PostWed Aug 31, 2022 10:25 am 
So these $5 areas don't necessarily not have restrooms(frog mtn) yet but some do like Jennifer Dunn correct? Thus not a way to generate funds for TH facilities only

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
kiliki
Member
Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Posts: 2067 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle
kiliki
Member
PostWed Aug 31, 2022 10:59 am 
catsp wrote:
puzzlr wrote:
The site reflects that I made a comment but the content isn't visible
It says "All comments will be reviewed by the Forest. Those comments found to be substantive will be evaluated further and considered in this proposal." [Emphasis added.] smile.gif
There are always whackos or just ignorant people that comment, so that seem fair. I remember comments on a Hawaii Volcanoes NP plan from people that wanted a Walmart on the park site in question ("there isn't one on that part of the island"). ONP and Rainier always get a lot of backwoods conspiracy theorists.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
kiliki
Member
Member


Joined: 07 Apr 2003
Posts: 2067 | TRs | Pics
Location: Seattle
kiliki
Member
PostWed Aug 31, 2022 11:14 am 
Just looked at the proposal and it seems like a non-event, IMO. You'll need to show a pass at some spots where you don't now, and large groups will need to pay to use some of the group campgrounds that hold 40 people. It certainly doesn't seem unreasonable that a group of up to 40 pays $75.

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
hbb
Member
Member


Joined: 06 Aug 2009
Posts: 314 | TRs | Pics
hbb
Member
PostWed Aug 31, 2022 12:05 pm 
timberghost wrote:
I know putting $5 in an envelope and putting it in a box is asking for trouble as far as theft.
There have to be thousands of campground and trailhead pay boxes in use between all the various USFS/NPS campgrounds, trailheads, and day use facilities. I can only recall one report of an attempted theft, which damaged the pay box but was unsuccessful. These standard collection boxes are really robust, I don't see the average tweaker gaining access. (See, e.g., http://ironrangersllc.com/index.htm ) Hell, I'd be hard pressed to break into one of these things with access to all the tools in my garage, a portable generator, and unlimited time.

rossb
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
timberghost
Member
Member


Joined: 06 Dec 2011
Posts: 1084 | TRs | Pics
timberghost
Member
PostWed Aug 31, 2022 1:26 pm 
up.gif

Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
JimmyBob
Member
Member


Joined: 22 Jun 2018
Posts: 55 | TRs | Pics
Location: Maple Valley, WA
JimmyBob
Member
PostWed Aug 31, 2022 2:46 pm 
hbb wrote:
These standard collection boxes are really robust
I have seen many totally destroyed. Plus it takes time/money/effort to collect the little money. None of it makes financial sense. Go look at the collection box at the Dewey Lake trailhead on the West side of Chinook.

Cyclopath
Back to top Reply to topic Reply with quote Send private message
   All times are GMT - 8 Hours
 Reply to topic
Forum Index > Trail Talk > Baker-Snoqualmie New Fee Areas?
  Happy Birthday Adi, flatsqwerl, Rachael, Brushbuffalo, Croffy!
Jump to:   
Search this topic:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum