Forum Index > Trail Talk > MetroParks Tacoma proposes to re-open "Five Mile Drive" at Pt. Defiance Park 10/22/22
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PostSat Oct 22, 2022 9:55 am 
(* edited 10/22/22 2 21:40 PDT *) Ms. Andrea Imler Washington Trails Association Seattle, Washington RE: MetroParks Tacoma proposal to re-open “Five Mile Drive” Dear Andrea: I wanted to try to describe to you what I believe to be the Park’s proposal for re-opening “Five Mile Drive” to vehicular traffic, and address some of my concerns. In the map that I sent to you, I’ve highlighted the Park “Service Road” which bisects the peninsula – the north-south route I’ve highlighted in yellow – which is the proposed re-route. Currently that short section of unpaved, gravel-surfaced roadbed is gated at each end and formerly was used only by park service vehicles. It’s a very wide path through a grove of large Douglas Fir – about 40 feet wide – the trees average about 20-24 in. DBH. As you can see, it leaves only the very outer end of the peninsula for walkers, hikers, cyclists, and other users who choose human-powered transportation. I have described as best I could the changes which have taken place since the closure of the road: the quiet, the ability to hear the birds again, and the behavior of the resident fauna. Prior to the closure the entire park was bombarded with the cacophony of young men racing around “Five Mile Drive” all day long, every day, blasting their loud stereos and loud exhaust systems. I cannot overstate this problem: it was every day, all day long, every day. Today the park is silent. More importantly, it is much quieter in this section of the north end of Tacoma now. I haven’t heard those boys racing up and down North Vassault Street in the middle of the night for quite a while. (Two blocks west of me.) It only occurred to me last night that was an additional benefit of the road closure: we local residents don’t have to put up with that racket all night long any more. I’m assuming those boys must have found another playground somewhere else. We were told that the reason for the closure of “Five Mile Drive” was because it was believed that the vibrations from the vehicular traffic were exacerbating the problem of the bluffs eroding around the outer end of the peninsula – the park is falling into Puget Sound bit by bit. All of the coastal bluffs on Puget Sound – comprised almost entirely of unconsolidated alluvial glacial till – are eroding into the Sound bit by bit. You can see it at Pt. Defiance. You can see it at Seahurst Park in Burien, or any other place along the Sound. The erosion is a natural process, and there can be no doubt that water run-off is a contributing factor. I submitted an inquiry to MetroParks Tacoma regarding the removal and disposal of the asphalt-surfaced road along “Five Mile Drive” which has been closed. The removal of the non-permeable asphalt-surfaced road, and the scarification of the road bed under it, would allow more rainfall to percolate through the soil of the old roadbed, thereby reducing the amount of water runoff. To give you an idea of the degree of damage that run-off has done, during the last couple years the run-off from the paved parking lot at the Vashon Island Dalco Passage * viewpoint, which was all directed to the northwest corner of the parking lot, washed out a section of trail, sending the outer 30 inches of trail down the side of the hill. The trail was subsequently re-routed about 50 feet west after my emails to their administrative staff alerted them to the problem. That is just one example. The Park has been cutting re-routes for several years, pulling the “outer loop” trail section back in away from the edges of the bluffs, as the water run-off continues to erode away the banks. Leaving the non-permeable asphalt-surfaced road in place only perpetuates the problem. While it will be monstrously expensive to remove it – since it’s all in the “Red Zone” and contaminated with arsenic and other nasties from the old Asarco smelter – it will all have to be hauled off to a landfill. However, as has been shown repeatedly, removing non-permeable surfaces and replacing them with permeable surfaces – or “rain gardens” (such as was done down next to the Murray Morgan bridge here) – has proven to have tremendous beneficial effects – one of them being the reduction of erosion. I submit that protecting the second-largest municipal park in the United States (after Central Park in New York City) is worth the investment. I submit that the re-opening of the road by creating a “by pass” where the service road currently exists will serve only to restore the conditions which previously existed: an all-day long parade of little hot-rodders shattering the silence. I submit the outer end of the peninsula (west of the service road) doesn’t provide enough buffer from the noise that would be created, even for one who was walking clear out at the Gig Harbor Viewpoint. (I should point out that prior to the road closure, there was NO place anywhere in the Park (other than down on the beach) where one could escape the noise from those cars. I should also point out I’m an old man who attended many rock concerts in my youth and I’ve lost - according to my otolaryngologist - about 30% of my upper-frequency hearing range.) I submit that the requisite installation of a stretch of new non-permeable asphalt-paved roadway – and the requisite roadside parking pull-outs – which will need to be put in for this new “by pass” will only serve to further exacerbate the erosion problem by creating yet more non-permeable road surface. In the larger picture, this is a serious “shoot yourself in the foot” proposal. I submit that the pushback being received by the City of Tacoma and MetroParks Tacoma, coming from people complaining about the closure, is coming from a very small and vocal constituency who believes it is their American right to be able to drive their automobile everywhere they want to. I submit that we don’t need a paved road to every corner of the earth. We do, as humans, need shelter from the storm. We need quiet. We need to be outside, among nature. The Japanese have proven this repeatedly – that’s why they build their factories with on-site “nature gardens”. The proposal to re-open “Five Mile Drive” at the service road is an ill-conceived and short-sighted plan. Again, we do not need a paved road to every corner of the earth. Get out and walk – it will do you some good. Thank you for your time and consideration. Brian Kirk Tacoma, Wa. on nwhikers.net = Ski on WTA – Skii cc: Joe Brady, MetroParks Tacoma cc: Shon Sylvia, MetroParks Tacoma cc: Christina Levingston-Smith, MetroParks Tacoma cc: Hon. Victoria Woodards, Mayor, City of Tacoma cc: Hon. Ryan Mello, Pierce County Council cc: Lynda Mapes, Seattle Times cc: Mitch Friedman, Conservation Northwest posted at nwhikers.net attachments: Map of Pt. Defiance Park showing proposed reroute and location of current gates The dynamics of rainfall interception by a seasonal temperate rainforest - 2004 Link, Unsworth, Marks (available at www.sciencedirect.com)
map of Pt. Defiance Park showing location of proposed re-route of "Five Mile Drive" and current location of gates  (per email J.Brady 10/21/22)
map of Pt. Defiance Park showing location of proposed re-route of "Five Mile Drive" and current location of gates (per email J.Brady 10/21/22)
* this letter erroneously cited a wash-out at the Vashon Island viewpoint. the actual location was the Dalco Passage viewpoint. I have posted photos below of the wash-out. *)

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."

ChinookPass, RichardJ, IanB
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PostSat Oct 22, 2022 10:08 am 
backstory: From: Ski <> Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2022 3:37 PM To: Councilmember Ryan Mello Cc: Andrea Imler; Joe Brady; Christina Levingston-Swift; Shon Sylvia Re: Nov. 8 election ballot includes Tacoma Parks & recreation maintenance levy Sure, I’d be more than happy to vote YES for more money for Parks and Recreation. MetroParks Tacoma has been doing a fabulous job. Had a great conversation with David Berry at my 50th high school reunion a few weeks ago. [David was a classmate of mine at Mt. Tahoma and later became one of the directors of MetroParks Tacoma.] I’m not sure if it was Dave or somebody else who told me there was some proposal on the table to REOPEN “Five Mile Drive” to the point where the Park Service Road bisects the peninsula and the “Spine Trail”. I’m here to tell you that if the additional money you’re asking for is to reopen “Five Mile Drive”, my vote will be a resounding NO, and I will encourage all my friends and relatives to vote NO as well. So tell me: Where are we on “Five Mile Drive”? Since the closure, I have had innumerable conversations with other walkers, cyclists, skateboarders, and other users of the trails at Pt. Defiance Park. Since I live only a few blocks away, it’s only a couple minutes away for a daily walk around the outer loop trail. I have not spoken with ONE person who did not agree that the road closure was a change for the better. NOT ONE. Sure, those who can’t or won’t walk are going to whine and cry about being “denied their opportunity”. Hey guess what? I have emphysema and COPD and I have to make two or three stops some days to get up a flight of stairs. I did the 2.5 mile outer loop in 59 minutes a couple weeks ago. If I can do it with only about a quarter of one lung left, by God they can do it. No sympathy from me, baby. The Park has changed dramatically for the better since the closure. We have QUIET. We have BIRDSONG. We have WIND IN THE CANOPY. When the road was opened, all of that was drowned out by the continual ROAR of the little boys hot-rodding around the loop with their “fart can” mufflers shattering the silence (but only if their boom-box stereo systems weren’t louder than the exhaust systems.) We have animals who literally have NO fear of humans out there at the far end of the peninsula, which is kind of spooky in a way – young bucks can be somewhat unpredictable – but that additional RISK OF PERSONAL INJURY just adds to the adventure in my book. Hopefully I’ve made it perfectly, crystal clear about my feelings about “Five Mile Drive” and which way I will VOTE. So... is it going to be YES? or NO? Anxiously awaiting your reply so I can share it with everyone I know who’s in voting range. Brian Kirk Tacoma, Wa. on nwhikers.net = Ski cc: Andrea Imler, Washington Trails Association cc: Metro Parks contacts ======== From: Joe Brady Sent: Friday, October 21, 2022 5:07 PM To: 'Ski' Cc: Andrea Imler ; Christina Levingston-Swift ; Shon Sylvia ; Jennifer Bowman ; Rosemary Ponnekanti ; Nancy Johnson ; Mark Knowlden Subject: RE: Nov. 8 election ballot includes Tacoma Parks & recreation maintenance levy Dear Mr. Kirk, Thank you again for your thoughtful questions about the upcoming levy and possible changes to the outer roads at Point Defiance Park. First, I want to alleviate your fears about levy funding. If approved by voters on Nov. 8, a restored levy rate would fund daily park maintenance, security, operations for youth and childcare programs, and care of our urban forests. You can learn more about that at metroparkstacoma.com/vote. Capital projects for infrastructure improvements are funded by bond dollars, state and other grants, and other philanthropic gifts. They are quite separate from levy funding. I also want to allay your worry that we would re-open the Outer Loop of Five Mile Drive to motorized traffic. We are not doing this. As you pointed out, the slope is very unstable and we need to keep vehicles off that road. It is true that we are exploring the feasibility of converting the existing service road to a vehicle road. As we closed the Outer Loop to vehicles, we heard from many community members with mobility difficulties who would now not be able to access that beautiful, nature-filled spot beloved by generations of Tacomans. It’s wonderful that you are able to overcome health challenges to access and enjoy the serenity that is found on the Outer Loop. We are committed to making our parks as accessible as possible for those whose mobility challenges surpass those you have been able to overcome. We are also committed to educating our community about nature, and the incredible ecological value of rare ancient forests, in particular. Converting the service road would support that education and that deep experience of nature for those who cannot access the Outer Loop. Finally, we appreciate your suggestion of de-paving the Outer Loop road- it is a great idea. That said, the expense of this project is outside our budget, and other factors would require assessment if the funding were available – such as an engineering analysis as to whether the removal process itself might disrupt the soils below, resulting in potentially negative consequences. And, removing it would also make that path much less enjoyable for those in wheelchairs, as well as cyclists. Thank you once more for caring about our parks, and taking the time to write to us. Joe Brady Deputy Director, Regional Parks and Attractions Parks and Recreation Department

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."

Mike Collins, RichardJ
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PostSat Oct 22, 2022 11:23 am 
A couple additional comments (in response to Mr. Brady's email above) for those who are not familiar with the park:
Joe Brady wrote:
"...It’s wonderful that you are able to overcome health challenges..."
I haven't "overcome" anything. Emphysema and COPD are degenerative conditions that only worsen with time. It is only by sheer willpower and determination that I am able to force myself to pound out those two-and-a-half-miles as fast as I can. If I was able to "overcome", I'd still be hauling that 60-pound pack around with me. It's been parked for a few years.
Joe Brady wrote:
We are also committed to educating our community about nature, and the incredible ecological value of rare ancient forests, in particular. Converting the service road would support that education and that deep experience of nature for those who cannot access the Outer Loop.
It is worth noting that the extant stand of uncompromised temperate rain forest (predominantly Douglas Fir, Western Hemlock, and Western Red Cedar) extends along the entire length of the Park at its southern edge, and there is plenty of "old growth" that can be accessed by those with limited mobility via those portions of the roadway which are currently open.
Joe Brady wrote:
Finally, we appreciate your suggestion of de-paving the Outer Loop road- it is a great idea. That said, the expense of this project is outside our budget, and other factors would require assessment if the funding were available – such as an engineering analysis as to whether the removal process itself might disrupt the soils below, resulting in potentially negative consequences. And, removing it would also make that path much less enjoyable for those in wheelchairs, as well as cyclists.
Mr. Brady raises a salient point: Removing the non-permeable asphalt-surfaced road might well create more problems than it would solve. It was for that reason that it was determined that it would be better to simply cap the old creosote plant at the eastern edge of Elliot Bay with 12 inches of asphalt than try to dig up the contaminated soil and haul it off. It is now the new container facility under the west end of the West Seattle high-rise bridge. Effectively the same strategy was used just down the hill from me at "Point Ruston" - the site of the old Asarco smelter - where an asphalt cap was put on top of the contaminated soil along the edge of Commencement Bay. However, in the case of the roadbed in the Park, we're not talking about a road that is immediately next to tidewater. If it could be done on the street in front of my house - as it has been done on every road in the north end of Tacoma over the last decade - it can be done down at the Park. Respectfully, Mr. Brady's statements just don't stand up to the sniff test. BK

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostSat Oct 22, 2022 12:55 pm 
Good on you for the above.

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PostSat Oct 22, 2022 12:57 pm 
comments need to be directed to: Mr. Joe Brady, Deputy Director for Regional Parks and Attractions – jbrady@tacomaparks.com Mr. Shon Sylvia, Executive Director - shons@tacomaparks.com Hon. Victoria Woodards, Mayor, City of Tacoma - victoria.woodards@cityoftacoma.org

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostSat Oct 22, 2022 7:04 pm 
Thanks for the info. The paved road is nice for biking, ebiking, stroller walking, and kid biking. So I wouldn't want them to remove it completely, even if they had to money to. Maybe they could remove some of the pavement to narrow the road a bit, although I like that it is plenty wide so there is room for bikers and pedestrians. The ebikers, escooters, eskate boards, and one wheels really get cooking on that road. I'd like to see them remove at least some of the pavement from the old parking spots that are no longer needed. Maybe keep a paved, wheelchair accessible path to all the view points but then they could re-vegetate some of reclaimed land. I am not in favor of using the access road to restore vehicle access. I think most people agree that it has been really nice to not have any vehicles at all. Those who can't walk far can still park and get to some of the good viewpoints via a short, flat, paved, walk, or pushed in via wheel chair. And there is still vehicle access to the rest of the park.

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PostSat Oct 22, 2022 10:06 pm 
* Correction / Addendum * * In my original post above, I erroneously cited the location of a washout as being near the Vashon Island viewpoint. The actual location is near the Dalco Passage viewpoint. *
Pt. Defiance washout at nw corner Dalco Passage VP 10/22/22
Pt. Defiance washout at nw corner Dalco Passage VP 10/22/22
Pt. Defiance washout at nw corner Dalco Passage VP 10/22/22
Pt. Defiance washout at nw corner Dalco Passage VP 10/22/22
location of washout near nw corner Dalco Passage VP
location of washout near nw corner Dalco Passage VP
* The parking lot at the Dalco Passage viewpoint isn't the only location of trouble:
washout at western edge of parking lot at Narrows viewpoint, Pt. Defiance Park 10/22/22
washout at western edge of parking lot at Narrows viewpoint, Pt. Defiance Park 10/22/22
altasnob wrote:
The paved road is nice for biking, ebiking, stroller walking, and kid biking. So I wouldn't want them to remove it completely, even if they had to money to. Maybe they could remove some of the pavement to narrow the road a bit, although I like that it is plenty wide so there is room for bikers and pedestrians. The ebikers, escooters, eskate boards, and one wheels really get cooking on that road. I'd like to see them remove at least some of the pavement from the old parking spots that are no longer needed. Maybe keep a paved, wheelchair accessible path to all the view points but then they could re-vegetate some of reclaimed land.
Even as a layman, it's not difficult to see that the parking lots seem to be more the cause of run-off erosion than the roadway, particularly in light of their sizes and their designs. Both the Vashon Island and the Dalco Passage parking lots are engineered in such a manner as to funnel all the water off toward the edge of the bluff. The result is what you see above in the first two photos. I am in full agreement with you after looking at it again today and considering your comments and those of a couple others - keep the road and take out the parking areas. Thanks. up.gif

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."

Mike Collins
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PostSat Oct 22, 2022 10:11 pm 
I had an interesting conversation with a couple ladies this afternoon at the Dalco Passage viewpoint. One of them raised the question about MetroParks Tacoma's intention to nurture more biodiversity in the park, and wondered if that were the case, why did they continue to mow the lawn areas around "Five Mile Drive"? Why not let them go wild, or replant them with native species that might otherwise be there if not for our intervention? The other thing she mentioned was that a broader array of flora species might have the potential for absorbing more rainfall, offering the potential for mitigating the issue of rainwater runoff. As an aside: Both of them felt that the park was better now with the road closed than when the road was open.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostSun Oct 23, 2022 7:07 am 
In this day and age, mobility issues is not a good reason to open areas to cars. There are quiet and slow alternatives. There are trikes, bikes, both acoustical and electric, electric wheelchairs, etc. If it is a closed, paved road, there are no excuses to reopen it. Maybe it's an opportunity for a rental to open up. Since I've been getting around town mostly by bicycle, I find myself becoming a bit tired of the rights of cars. Here, they are adding yet another lane to the most dangerous pedestrian intersection to make it safer for.....cars. Here in a little itty bitty town.

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PostSun Oct 23, 2022 7:52 am 
Most of Tacoma does not want this road reopened to vehicles. But there is a minority contingent who misses the opportunity to cruise through Point Defiance in their vehicles, speed, smoke weed, feed the racoons, and then do it all over again. This drive was basically the cruising strip in the city for all the teenagers and 20 year olds to congregate at. They know the city will never open it up again for them so they are using the "what about the old people" argument. I agree treeswarper. My parents are close to 80 and recently got electric bikes and when they visit they bike from my house to Point Defiance and love it.

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PostSun Oct 23, 2022 11:02 am 
Just one example of many.

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PostSun Oct 23, 2022 11:20 am 
altasnob wrote:
Most of Tacoma does not want this road reopened to vehicles. But there is a minority contingent who misses the opportunity to cruise through Point Defiance in their vehicles, speed, smoke weed, feed the racoons, and then do it all over again. This drive was basically the cruising strip in the city for all the teenagers and 20 year olds to congregate at. They know the city will never open it up again for them so they are using the "what about the old people" argument.
Thank you for articulating that. Pt. Defiance Park's "Five Mile Drive" - and in particular Owen Beach - have both been the de facto "let's shine up the hotrod and show off for the girls" destination in the Tacoma area since the 1950s. Daytime hours, of course. Friday and Saturday nights, the destination was either "Frisko Freeze" down on 6th Ave., or up at "Highland Hill" just west of North 6th & Pearl, but I digress (as well as show my age again.) The other dynamic at play here, altasnob, is that Tacoma has a long tradition of being mired in, and clinging to, the status quo, and eschewing anything new, different, or "progressive". It is the reason we have that crappy "blue diamond" paint job on the Tacoma Dome, instead of the Steven Antonakos neon, which would have made the Tacoma Dome a world-class destination site, instead of just an ugly blue turd in the middle of arguably the ugliest stretch of Interstate 5 between Canada and Mexico. Do we really want to revert back to the conditions which have existed for half a century? Where there is never a moment's peace on that peninsula, when so many people have a genuine need to "get away" from the fracas of daily urban life? We have an opportunity here to turn the second-largest municipal park in the U.S. into a world-class destination site - which it is already - where we can offer visitors an opportunity to visit uncompromised lowland temperate rain forest in its climax stage within easy walking distance, and within 20 minutes of first-class hotel rooms and restaurants. Tell me where else on the planet you can buy that vacation package.

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PostSun Oct 23, 2022 6:37 pm 
Photo tour of Pt. Defiance Park Service Road 10/23/22

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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PostMon Oct 24, 2022 9:22 am 
Man, I haven't been to the park since they closed the road to trees... I need to make it out there soon! Haven't seen the Owen Beach work either.

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PostMon Oct 24, 2022 11:22 am 
My childhood memory of visiting that park is of a penguin with a little guardhouse, and tunnels in the shrubberies, that kids played in, but I don't think the shrubbery was meant to be played in?

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