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rossb
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rossb
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PostMon Dec 26, 2022 10:12 am 
Cyclopath wrote:
I got a pair of 60/50/55 mm a few weeks ago. Is that the side cut?
That is the type of gear I recommend most people use for most logging roads. But some would want to pair that with an A. T. or Telemark setup if you want to ski more challenging stuff. To answer your question, sort of. Technically those are the dimensions that determine the sidecut. But lots of people (myself included) will refer to the dimensions as the sidecut. This is a great explanation: https://blog.liftopia.com/buying-skis-sidecut-turn-radius-explained/. It really is about turning radius. There are plenty of cross country skis that have a turning radius that is enormous (i. e. they have very little sidecut). Some have none at all. Going from those sorts of skis to what you have is huge. There are slopes where you can simply carve to make a turn. Initiating a sharp turn is also much easier. With a lot of sidecut, you can make tighter turns more easily. But unless you have very stiff boots and bindings, you will have trouble handling the skis. Or at least I have had trouble in the past. I used Alpina Light Terrain skis (102-64-87) with NNN-BC and it was a mess. You really need a super stiff boot to handle those skis. On the other hand, I have used Atomic Rainiers (88-60-78) with NNN-BC and they work fine. I just find that now that I have a much beefier setup (Telemark, but similar to A. T.) I never use them. My Inbound Crown (68-58-64) work great with my regular cross country ski boots. The turning radius isn't t as great, but they are considerably lighter and the setup is just a lot more comfortable. If I need more control, I skip over the intermediate gear and go with the plastic boots (and much bigger skis). This is a site when you can calculate the turning radius, but you need the length of the skis: http://member.fis-ski.com/skicalc.htm

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Randito
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PostMon Dec 26, 2022 11:37 am 
I skied Amablis early in December after the 1st storm that brought sufficient coverage (barely) I used Madshus Glittertind MGVs mounted with Ski Trab Titan race bindings and Scarpa Alien RS boots. We did the loop. Broke trail both up and down the loop. Was finally able to slide a bit after returning to the Y and were able to follow our uptrack, but I was still double polling going down that due to the sticky snow. Never locked the heels or switched the boots out of walk mode. Even with the heels unlocked and boots in walk mode, the side to side stiffness and torsional stiffness of these boots is superior to any NNN-BC or SNS-BC setups I have owned. Control better than my old Merrill Ultras + Voile 3Pin Cable bindings , but tours better and much lighter. Control similar to Garmont Excursions + Voile 3Pin Cables, but tours MUCH better. For logging road skiing , placing a WTB ad on Craigslist in Seattle has a good chance of scoring a 90s or early 00s Telemark setup for very little money. Be sure to inspect the leather in the toebox carefully. If it wasn't cared for and has dried out , it is possible to tear apart the toe making for cold wet toes and little control and reminding you of the importance of always have a decent quantity of duct tape rolled on to your ski pole shafts.

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Bronco
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PostTue Dec 27, 2022 9:14 am 
Randito wrote:
For logging road skiing , placing a WTB ad on Craigslist in Seattle has a good chance of scoring a 90s or early 00s Telemark setup for very little money. Be sure to inspect the leather in the toebox carefully. If it wasn't cared for and has dried out , it is possible to tear apart the toe making for cold wet toes and little control and reminding you of the importance of always have a decent quantity of duct tape rolled on to your ski pole shafts.
Leather tele boots from the 80's or 90's have a high probability of smelling so bad they are likely unusable for all but dairy farmers and undertakers who would be somewhat conditioned to the stench.

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Randito
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PostTue Dec 27, 2022 10:10 am 
Bronco wrote:
Leather tele boots from the 80's or 90's have a high probability of smelling so bad they are likely unusable for all but dairy farmers and undertakers who would be somewhat conditioned to the stench.
That a really strong argument for spending hundreds $$ for new gear instead of $10.

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rossb
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PostTue Dec 27, 2022 2:41 pm 
Randito wrote:
Even with the heels unlocked and boots in walk mode, the side to side stiffness and torsional stiffness of these boots is superior to any NNN-BC or SNS-BC setups I have owned.
I think just about everyone would agree with you. Even unlocked the boots/bindings have an amazing amount of control. Telemark gear is similar, in that even when I've forgotten to flip the switch (or didn't bother) I still have a huge amount of control.
Randito wrote:
Control better than my old Merrill Ultras + Voile 3Pin Cable bindings , but tours better and much lighter. Control similar to Garmont Excursions + Voile 3Pin Cables, but tours MUCH better.
I think that is where some folks would disagree. I find (or at least found) that AT boots didn't tour especially well. They are light, for sure. And they offer some flexibility at the ankle. But without the bend at the foot (the metatarsal) it just isn't as comfortable (at least to me). But that is definitely subjective. I know plenty of people that feel the way you do, and plenty that feel the way I do. This is why I own a Telemark setup. It is just more comfortable on my feet. It is why lots of people own setups that offer less control (like BC). It is why folks are trying to reinvent the wheel (in my opinion) with this new type of Nordic binding (I don't see how it is better than BC, but they do). Which does suggest that there are times when a BC setup is "just right". It offers just enough control, while being more comfortable than an A. T. setup. Personally, I think those days are rare. This is why keep going back to the combination I suggested. For the O. P. I recommend an A. T. setup and a regular cross country rig like Cyclopath and I have. Use the A. T. setup for when you need it. Find a cheap A. T. setup (used) if you can. (Foot fit is everything.) If you can't find something that is affordable, just start with the cross country setup. But I do think you should be able to find a decent A. T. setup for not that much money. It might be a bit on the heavy side, but steep tours tend to be short tours. At worst you gravitate towards those tours anyway. I've toured Skyscraper Pass and had it to myself, while the vast majority of people ski slopes that are much closer (and steeper). It's all good. If you find that every A. T. boot just seems to hurt your foot, consider Telemark (that is what I did). [For brevity, I will refer to A.T. or Telemark gear as simply "A. T." for the rest of this comment.] Meanwhile, for Amabalis (or similar roads) you just use regular cross country gear. I've skied Amabalis dozens if not hundreds of times. I've skied every combination of groomed, ungroomed, and torn-up-by-exuberant-snowmobiles (that was especially challenging for my friend). I've skied various side roads as well as forested and open slopes. Not once have I wished that I had A. T. gear. It just isn't worth the bother. The cross country setup is just a lot more comfortable and faster going up. A lot does depend on the conditions. With A. T. you can ski anything, which means you can get out more. But in general, of the trips I've done over the last few years, I would recommend the following gear:
  • Amabalis -- Cross country for sure. Grooming has vastly improved, and even when they haven't groomed, I would still use cross country gear.
  • Kendall Lake Roads -- Could go either way. If you use cross country gear, you will likely stick to the road on the way down. You can explore a few open slopes by the lake(s), but taking the steep route down (through the trees) is very challenging with cross country gear (including BC). Even the road is often challenging -- I would consider it an expert level cross country ski tour best reserved for excellent snow conditions. It is just too torn up by everyone and their dog. So I guess A. T. until you get good (or find excellent midweek conditions).
  • Foss River Roads -- Cross country.
  • Deer Creek Road -- Cross country although I could see A. T. being handy by the lake (and above it).
  • Mountain Loop Road -- Cross country. Makes a great beginner run (very flat). Only drawback is snowmobiles and occasionally low snow levels (true of Deer Creek as well).
  • North Mountain Road -- Cross country.
  • Park Butte -- A. T., although I've skied it with NNN-BC. Most of it is rather mellow, but there are sections that aren't. Next time I do it I'll be on A. T. gear.
  • Paradise -- A. T. as a general rule of thumb, but there are places where you can ski cross country. If all you have is cross country gear, don't rule it out as a fun trip.
  • Sunrise -- Similar to Paradise. Might be one of the few where an NNN setup could work (for some tours). Only works in the spring, so the best setup involves skis you can carry on your back, or carry with your bike (right before they officially open the road).
  • Artist Point -- I would go with A. T. The tours aren't long enough to bother with anything else (or they are much more challenging, and you definitely want a plastic boot, along with avalanche gear, etc.).
There are also a lot of groomed areas, like the Methow and Bend that are fun. This works fine with the type of cross country gear I mentioned (with decent sidecut). If you find yourself really enjoying that though, then you could get a pair of skis that are best at that. Basically you would be making the reverse transition that Cyclopath made. You can get get skinnier, faster skis, with more camber and keep the same boots and bindings. That makes it easy as you can just swap out the skis depending on what you plan on doing. If you look at that list, there is only one (maybe two) logging road where I would use A. T. gear. I know I'm not alone. Having been on those roads, I see people with snowshoes and a range of ski gear. But except for Kendall Lake Road, it is almost always cross country gear. That is a big exception though, given its proximity and the various really nice terrain as you get close to the lakes.

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Cyclopath
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PostTue Jan 03, 2023 12:20 pm 
That was a long, miserable walk out. I disliked the bindings even before they came apart, and never want to risk using Rottafella bindings again. The store was very gracious and let me return these. I need to buy a set of skis to fill this niche. These were 60/50/55, yesterday I used 44/44/44 mm skis and was immediately surprised they don't turn themselves I need a lot more technique to drive them. I assume the extremely easy and precise steering in the fatter skis was because they had so much shape? I want to keep enjoying that handling.

zimmertr
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Cyclopath
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PostTue Jan 03, 2023 1:48 pm 
https://madshus.com/en-us/p/fjelltech-m50-skin-skis-2023 If I can't find skis that are more suitable, is it possible to remove the binding plate so I can use ones of my choice?

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Cyclopath
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PostWed Jan 04, 2023 10:38 am 
Alpendave wrote:
Check out Altai Skis.
I'm looking at their website. Can you use any of their skis with NNN boots and bindings? It doesn't look like that's what they're for at all?

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Randito
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PostWed Jan 04, 2023 11:34 am 
Hoks are cool, but they are wide , so using an old skool technique of using a single sturdy pole, ( called a lurk ) is needed for control on all but the softest snows.

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Cyclopath
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PostWed Jan 04, 2023 12:19 pm 
I have a feeling AT is in my future. For now, I need a pair of Nordic skis around 60/50/55 mm with NNN bindings, and ideally mohair skins not fishscales. It's amazing there don't seem to be more options like this. Rossi made one. I really liked the Madshus m50, the Evo is unknown but I assume it would ski very similarly given identical dimensions. But I don't know. The main reason I would go with Rossi instead would be to avoid the horrible bindings, but I think Rottafella makes bindings for pretty much everyone but Salomon? https://www.crosscountryski.com/product/rossignol-evo-r-skin-xc-60-tour-w-turnamic-control/ https://madshus.com/en-us/p/fjelltech-m50-skin-skis-2023

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Chief Joseph
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PostWed Jan 04, 2023 11:19 pm 
Finally took my maiden voyage on X-country skis down my ice covered driveway with a bit of a slope. I arrived at the bottom a bit faster than I wanted and promptly fell over. Was a bit of a challenge getting back up, lol. Supposed to get a bit of snow tomorrow so probably try again. I have some Alpinina touring approach Skis with the old school 3 pin bindings. Before I left for Idaho I met up with Waterman and he gave me some old Merrill boots that fit me and the bindings perfectly. Thanks Bob! So for 20 bucks total I am ready to go (hopefully).

Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof.

RichP
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rossb
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PostSat Jan 07, 2023 11:17 am 
I have a pair of Altai Hoks. Make me an offer smile.gif They are a niche product. They are good for carrying, but not great for skiing. Thus they work well for in the spring, when you don't want to carry a longer pair of skis up the mountain. But they you have to deal with boots. There are various bindings that work with regular boots (in the same way that snowshoe bindings work with regular boots) but I haven't had much luck with them. I can ski, but not kick and glide. I ended up putting NNN BC bindings on them, and they basically just collect dust. It doesn't help that no one else is interested in doing the same thing (they just carry snowshoes in the spring). Oh, one advantage is that they fit in the trunk really well. So if you are going with your buddies and they are carrying snowshoes, you can easily bring along the skis.

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rossb
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PostSat Jan 07, 2023 6:48 pm 
@Cylcopath -- I would look into fixing the skis you have. I've never heard of a binding fail that way. Very weird. There are other skis like that if you want to get new ones. I have a pair of Fischer Inbound Crown (68-58-64) but they don't make them anymore. I prefer skis without metal edges. I feel like metal edges add unnecessary weight (for this type of boot/binding). But some of these are worth considering, as the weight penalty may not be that large. Some have partial metal edges as well. Meanwhile, ski makers are now moving away from fish scales to built-in skins. You can find these on "racing skis" (although I think most races are still done with kick wax). But it is basically the same ski (expensive, very fast, skinny and straight) with built-in skins. This started a couple years ago. But this hasn't replaced fish scales, especially in this sort of range, which tend to be significantly cheaper than the racing skis. I find the websites for the ski makers to be annoying. I just wish they listed each ski with the specs (sidecut, weight, metal edges, etc.) but often you have to click around to find it. I can't find the sidecut of most Fischer skis, for example, but at least other sites have it. Anyway, here are some I ran across. They all have fish scales and lack metal edges unless it says otherwise. From Fischer: Adventure 62 Crown Xtralite (62/52/60) Spider 62 Crown Xtralite -- (62/52/60) with metal edges. Rossignol: Evo XT 55 Positrack/Tour SI (55/48/52) Evo OT 60 Positrack (60/50/55) -- Partial metal edge Evo XC 65 R-Skin (65/53/60) -- Has built in skins instead fish scales. These are kinda tempting -- I hope they keep making them. These companies have more models worth considering, and of course there are other ski manufacturers.

Cyclopath
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Cyclopath
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PostSat Jan 07, 2023 10:17 pm 
rossb wrote:
Evo XC 65 R-Skin (65/53/60) -- Has built in skins instead fish scales. These are kinda tempting -- I hope they keep making them.
I think these are new this year? I just (this morning) ordered the older version of these, which were 60/50/55 mm, with mohair skins, at 1,340 grams for the pair in size small. The Madshus were the same dimensions, also skin skis, but 1,780 grams for the same size. https://www.crosscountryski.com/product/rossignol-evo-r-skin-xc-60-tour-w-turnamic-control/ I had NNN manual bindings put on them, they should mail out Tuesday. I'm hoping that the same dimensions mean they'll have the same really fun turning characteristics. Skin vs fishscale is a big topic and might be worth its own thread. I really like skin skis personally.

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rossb
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PostSun Jan 08, 2023 9:50 am 
Let me know what you think. Those look like great skis.

Cyclopath
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