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Ski
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PostTue Nov 08, 2022 8:16 am 
The solution, of course, as I suggested in another thread, is simply to kill all the goddam cows. Done. Problem solved.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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thunderhead
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PostTue Nov 08, 2022 8:25 am 
But i want steak and milk.

mosey
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Ski
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PostTue Nov 08, 2022 8:30 am 
so eat buffalo. much healthier. the farm-raised venison from New Zealand is damn good too. cows are the bane of mankind. they should be removed from the planet. all kinds of animals are capable of producing milk. ask anybody from Tibet. Besides, considering how many other options there are to beef, that's not a cogent argument.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Malachai Constant
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PostTue Nov 08, 2022 8:55 am 
In Algonquin Provincial Park the presence of wolves kept the numbers of white tail deer small as compared to moose as wolves easily kill deer but have a much harder time with moose. The wolves were killed off pretty much by the 1950’s. When the park was established hunting was severely limited to preserve moose. With the wolves gone deer numbers exploded as the could browse the cutover land. Moose numbers plunged as the deer ate most of the available food. Deer faced starvation due to over population.Wolves were reintroduced and predator bounties banned. The result is moose numbers increased an deer thrived in open areas.

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Cyclopath
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PostTue Nov 08, 2022 9:17 am 
Sky Hiker wrote:
Answer to your question is "NO" we have too many predators as it is
If there's anything we have too much of, it's people. If nature can make room for our destructive asses, a few cats can fit too.

Secret Agent Man  Ski
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PostTue Nov 08, 2022 9:40 am 
I'd posit you would never see a condition where there were "too many" predators. Their population numbers are limited by the carrying capacity of their habitat range. In cases where they've been extirpated, where huge numbers of prey animals exist, the predator numbers will increase rapidly. WDFW had NO idea the resident wolf population in Washington State would increase at the rate it did. When the prey animal population is reduced to a the level where it no longer sustains the predator population, the predator population will remain stable or decrease. The system worked just fine until we stuck our fingers into it and screwed it up.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."

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RumiDude
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PostTue Nov 08, 2022 10:00 am 
Couple things ... There have always been territorial fights between predators of all sorts, this includes wolves, coyotes, bears, cougars, lynx, and bobcats. It has also occurred with the very top predator, human beings. The problem with humans is that they are capable of expiration of other species. See wolves and grizzly bears as prime examples. As I for the issue of deer, moose, elk, etc, these have always been managed by humans for the benefit of hunters,farmers, and ranchers, NOT for the benefit and health of the ecosystem. And the primary reason for problems in this area are loss of habitat due to unmanaged human usage. Rumi. <~~~~~unmanageable

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treeswarper
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PostTue Nov 08, 2022 10:49 am 
Much of the elk in our state come from elk transplanted here from the Yellowstone area. In fact, the local tribes have transplanted elk to their lands and now market a big game hunt to hunters with enough money. I hate to tell you, but people are part of the ecosystem and have been for some time. I was at a lecture about GPNF archeology, and during excavations of rock shelters, at one point, elk bones disappeared and did not reappear. Volcanic eruption? Over hunting? Disease? People had to eat and have historically been "Top Predator". You also cannot just shove an animal species into an area where the citizens do not want it, without resistance. You can expect wolves to be shot or poisoned or ?? for some time, if not as long as people are living among them. That's just the way it is, no matter how horrible you think it is. Like, I'm going to release skunks in the Redmond area. It'll be against the law for you to do anything detrimental to a skunk. Would that be acceptable?

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RumiDude
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PostTue Nov 08, 2022 12:29 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
I hate to tell you, but people are part of the ecosystem and have been for some time.
I think most of us understand we humans are part of the ecosystem, so you aren't telling us something we don't already know. But we are also aware that many times in the past humans have screwed up their ecosystem soooooo badly that they produced famine and thus starved themselves. They have also produced ecological disasters which forced them to move, i.e. ecological refugees. The difference between humans and all other animals is that we can ponder our mistakes and hopefully learn to avoid making similar mistakes in the future. We can understand the tragedy of the commons and thus devise a solution. From the linked piece: "It’s helpful for both firms and individuals to understand the tragedy of the commons so they can make more sustainable and environmentally-friendly choices."
treeswarper wrote:
That's just the way it is ...
That is giving up. That is denying we can cooperate and self regulate. That is a rejection of the common good. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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PostTue Nov 08, 2022 12:31 pm 
The urban centers of Seattle and Tacoma already have healthy skunk populations, which are supported by idiots who think it's a good idea to feed squirrels and raccoons. The Roosevelt Elk up on the Olympic Peninsula and down around Mt. St. Helens (the two largest population centers of Roosevelt Elk in the state) are indigenous to the area.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Kascadia
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PostTue Nov 08, 2022 12:39 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
Much of the elk in our state come from elk transplanted here from the Yellowstone area.
Geographic range "Elk are found throughout Washington, with two seperate subspecies primarily occupying opposite sides of the Cascade Crest. Roosevelt elk (Cervus canadensis roosevelti) are found in the coastal ranges of the Olympic Peninsula, southwest Washington, and the western slopes of the Cascade Range including Western Washington river valleys. Olympic National Park and surrounding forests host the largest number of Roosevelt elk living anywhere -- about 5,000. Rocky Mountain elk (Cervus canadensis nelsoni) are found primarily in the mountain ranges and shrubsteppe of eastern Washington, with small herds being established or reestablished throughout the Pacific Northwest. They now overlap with Roosevelt elk in the southern Cascade Mountains and adjacent areas. Many Rocky Mountain elk populations currently in Washington stem from elk transplanted from Yellowstone National Park in the early 1900's. Rocky Mountain elk are slightly lighter in color than Roosevelt elk, and their average size is slightly smaller. The antlers of Rocky Mountain elk are typically more slender, have longer tines, and are less palmated than Roosevelt elk antlers." https://wdfw.wa.gov/species-habitats/species/cervus-canadensis#living

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Ski
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PostTue Nov 08, 2022 5:46 pm 
^ Unless I am mistaken, that herd over on Oak Creek are Rocky Mountain elk.... I could well be mistaken. The area around Mt. St. Helens has the highest elk population density in the state, but the wolves haven't managed to make it that far yet... they're still hanging out over on the Teanaway.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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BigBrunyon
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PostTue Nov 08, 2022 10:26 pm 
The issue at hand here is that it's always a rube deal when getting these big deals thru to law! Run of the mill churn em and burn em type deal.

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timberghost
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PostWed Nov 09, 2022 11:45 am 
What it really comes down to is the info about predators can be interpreted/manipulated to fit each person's views or agenda. There's no doubt that their has been an increase in the numbers good or bad it's your take.

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PostWed Nov 09, 2022 12:32 pm 
Ski wrote:
all kinds of animals are capable of producing milk. ask anybody from Tibet.
You can milk anything with nipples.
Ski wrote:
really begs the question of "Do we NEED another apex predator that's not REALLY the apex predator?"
Are they still talking about reintroducing brown bears into parts of Washington? I know they already exist along the northern border, but I feel like bringing in more and spreading them out would cause more unfortunate interactions with them, considering how many people (these days more unexperienced people) there are on our trails.

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