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Ski
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PostThu Dec 01, 2022 6:12 am 
Some people require tangible, empirical evidence that a thing is true before they accept it as being true. Other people will believe anything you tell them. I fall into the first category.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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altasnob
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PostThu Dec 01, 2022 7:02 am 
Ski, the problem is, it could take a thousand years to be able to identify tangible evidence that the extinction of the grizzly from the North Cascades has damaged the ecosystem. If we could keep you alive for a thousand years, and then shove this evidence in front of your face, you would say, damn, sorry, I was wrong, we should have done what we can to save the grizzly. I take the position that the elimination of any species from its natural ecosystem has a negative effect on that ecosystem. Doesn't matter if it is large, like a grizzly, or small like an insect or microbe. I think as humans, and in particular, wealthy humans, we have a duty to do everything we can to maintain the biodiversity on this planet. We cannot sit here today and claim that the extinction of grizzlies from the North Cascades is no big deal. Grizzlies have only been extinct from the North Cascades for a few decades and it will take hundreds of years for the effect of this extinction to manifest itself.

ChinookPass, Logbear, Waterman
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timberghost
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PostThu Dec 01, 2022 7:23 am 
Just like before if the NCNP decides to drop or not continue with the reintroduction. The Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) Will send the DOI a 60-day notice of intent to sue that asserts that the “reintroduction termination violates the Endangered Species Act.” One of those typical cry until you get your way tactics these groups pull. Mean while the taxpayers pay for another over inflated study to be done.

Ski
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Ski
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PostThu Dec 01, 2022 9:20 am 
@altasnob - it would not take a thousand years. timberghost, in a few very short succinct sentences just above, sums up exactly what this game is all about. I am sorry that so many of you are being fooled. Seriously. I know that you are all intelligent, educated people. It troubles me that you are deluded by this nonsense.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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altasnob
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PostThu Dec 01, 2022 9:36 am 
Ski wrote:
@altasnob - it would not take a thousand years.
Ok, how many years did it take for the introduction of mountain goats in the Olympics to produce easily identifiable, tangible evidence that they are harming the ecosystem? Goats were introduced in the 1920s. And I would say it wasn't until the last two decades that the harm goats create was readily apparent in the Olympics. The last confirmed grizzly in the North Cascades was in 1969. Even after that, a few likely migrated in and out from Canada unseen. So lets say grizzlies have been extinct from the ecosystem since 1980. That's only 42 years. 42 years is not enough time for the negative effect of the extinction of the grizzly to manifest itself in the form of concrete, easily identifiable, tangible evidence. Wouldn't you rather be safe than sorry? What you don't seem to grasp is not only is the grizzly extinct from the North Cascades in the USA, the grizzly is also perilously close to extinction from the North Cascades section in Canada. This section stretches from Hope all the way to Lytton, BC. Canadian scientists believe there are only six grizzlies left in this zone. And the grizzly is also nearly extinct from the zones next to this North Cascades, BC zone. We are not Canadians. We cannot control what Canada does, or does not do. But we can take matters into our own hands and do what we can to try to prevent the grizzly from going extinct in this massive region that provides ideal grizzly habitat.

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RumiDude
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PostThu Dec 01, 2022 12:47 pm 
Ski wrote:
Some people require tangible, empirical evidence that a thing is true before they accept it as being true. Other people will believe anything you tell them. I fall into the first category.
There are other categories than what you listed. If you can't understand that then you are deluding yourself. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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philfort
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PostThu Dec 01, 2022 12:53 pm 
Nuance shmuance!

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Logbear
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PostThu Dec 01, 2022 5:44 pm 
Why does the Fisher deserve reintroduction?... https://conservationnw.org/our-work/wildlife/fisher/ But the Grizzly Bear doesn't?... https://conservationnw.org/our-work/wildlife/northcascadesgrizzly/ https://www.northcascadesgrizzly.org/ I'm not just asking this for fun. I'd really like to know what the reasons are. I've read what Wilderness Watch has to say about it. They want the bears to recover on their own with minimal human activity in Wilderness Areas. I doubt that Wilderness Watch will do much more than write an opinion letter. A lawsuit from them would probably pit the Wilderness Act against the Endangered Species Act. I think Wilderness Watch would lose and the Endangered Species Act would come out the winner. I don't agree with Wilderness Watch in this case. People messed the ecosystem up by killing the bears. I think people should take positive action to repair the damage that's been done. That's my moral argument. The legal argument is the Endangered Species Act.

Genesis 1:24 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

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Kim Brown
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PostThu Dec 01, 2022 9:23 pm 
Logbear wrote:
Why does the Fisher deserve reintroduction?... https://conservationnw.org/our-work/wildlife/fisher/ But the Grizzly Bear doesn't?... https://conservationnw.org/our-work/wildlife/northcascadesgrizzly/ https://www.northcascadesgrizzly.org/
The articles look to me like Conservation NW advocated for the fisher and advocates for the grizzly reintroduction.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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treeswarper
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PostFri Dec 02, 2022 7:30 am 

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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timberghost
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PostFri Dec 02, 2022 8:05 am 
Kim Brown wrote:
Logbear wrote:
Why does the Fisher deserve reintroduction?... https://conservationnw.org/our-work/wildlife/fisher/ But the Grizzly Bear doesn't?... https://conservationnw.org/our-work/wildlife/northcascadesgrizzly/ https://www.northcascadesgrizzly.org/
The articles look to me like Conservation NW advocated for the fisher and advocates for the grizzly reintroduction.
Its all about a way to drum up public interest by groups like CNW. Which then they turn into donations coming in

Ski
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treeswarper
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PostFri Dec 02, 2022 9:05 am 
Logbear wrote:
Why does the Fisher deserve reintroduction?... https://conservationnw.org/our-work/wildlife/fisher/ But the Grizzly Bear doesn't?...
Fishers are a heck of a lot cheaper to deal with. There are many to choose from in the upper midwest, in fact I mentioned Fishers being rare out here when I lived there and there were many offers of sending the resident beasties of Up Nort Wisconsin to Out West. Apparently they like to eat chickens and do. I'd suggest if you are into researching such things, dig into how much the Fisher project costs and compare to what the bear project will cost and has cost so far.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities

Ski
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Kim Brown
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PostFri Dec 02, 2022 10:47 am 
The question was why one and not the other, but the links provided as examples are both FOR reintroduction of both, not one as yes and one as no. But whatever.....yes, the fisher is easy compared to the grizzly; it's cute, furry, and reintroduction was unopposed. Low hanging fruit, that was. The public Open House for fisher reintroduction at the downtown Seattle library had ONE member of the public in attendance: Me. And that was only because I was downtown anyway, and there was the possibility of snacks. The Seattle grizz Open House at SPU was packed. Standing room only. PACKED. People had to be rotated in and out. And that was just one of the Open House events.

"..living on the east side of the Sierra world be ideal - except for harsher winters and the chance of apocalyptic fires burning the whole area." Bosterson, NWHiker's marketing expert
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treeswarper
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PostFri Dec 02, 2022 11:23 am 
From what I read in last week's local paper, the one grizzly meeting held here, in an actual area that bears are likely to wander out into, was packed with people against the project. Experience tells me that it doesn't matter how packed a meeting is, the powers that be will do what they want to do and lots of money/ grants will likely be available to fund more people and 'ologists who need employment. Look at the salmon debacle for proof of that. If the salmon populations were to recover, funding would decrease. It doesn't pay to be a success when it comes to endangered and threatened species. I'm also against bear torture--collars, darts, tracking, blood drawing and the biggie of dumping a bear in an unfamiliar area. It's kind of like all the dogs that are being dumped now. We are against dogs being dumped but bears are OK.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities

Ski
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Ski
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PostFri Dec 02, 2022 1:00 pm 
Fishers aren't prone to killing expensive livestock like cows, sheep, goats, or llamas. They kill a few chickens. Chickens are cheap. People are not afraid of being attacked by fishers. They'd rather take photographs of them. Ergo: no negative social or economic impacts - real or imagined - from the fisher. Fishers and Grizzly Bears = Apple and Oranges. Invalid argument, but thanks for the non sequitur whataboutism.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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