[Logbear]

From the Endangered Species Act:

[treeswarper]

Balance. It has different meanings to different people. What balance is correct? If you've lived in a rural area for many years, you will notice that nature changes. Is balance the current state of burned areas? Does your defiinition of "balance" consider people? Hate to tell you folks this, but people are and have been part of the ecosystem before Europeans arrived. Is the pre-european time balance? So many righteous people on this forum who want OTHER people to change their way of life. Time for my usual lecture topic. If the area is not in balance ecologically, perhaps you should not put pressure on the fragile environments and stay out of the wilderness. Do not drive to the trailhead. Do not insist on bigger parking lots. Until you start walking your talk, I won't ever take you seriously. Ever. I-5 is a huge clearcut, extending from Canada to Mexico. Rehab it. Do the same for Hwy 20 as it is in potential griz habitat. Stop driving. Stop flying. Set a damn example and change your own ways of living before telling others that they must.

[RumiDude]

[Logbear]

I was trying to provide Ski with some information to answer his question.

[Kim Brown]

[Logbear]

Speaking of Grizzly Bears and the North Cascade Ecosystem..... The last question that was presented during the Friday night meeting mentioned the poor berry harvest on the west side of the Olympics. The commenter wondered if this would affect the Grizzly's. The first part of the answer was that the Olympics are not part of the North Cascade Ecosystem, so there is no plan to put Grizzlies there. The berry harvest answer was more involved. The poor berry harvest this year was widespread and was seen in several grizzly bear habitats. But the bears were very good at finding the good berry places. The bears eat the berries in the good berry plots, then they go to some other place where they dig up plants that they prefer the bulbs of. While the bear is digging up bulbs with it's long straight claws, it's pooping berry seeds that have been "processed" in the bears stomach. These seeds are ready to grow and these areas will become future berry areas. The Grizzlies that would be transplanted have a 90% vegetation diet. 10% carrion, insects, and small mammals. The Grizzly's have long straight claws that are very good for digging, but not climbing trees. Black bears have curved claws, and although they do dig, they're not as good at it. Black bears are good at climbing trees.

[Logbear]

How would Grizzly Bears in the North Cascade Ecosystem affect tourism/economy? As I pondered this question I was reminded of something I saw this year. Back on August 14th, up the Mountain Loop, I saw 2 big luxury tour buses (Beeline Tours, LTD) parked at Deer Creek. I'd never seen tour buses up there before so I drove up to the bus and talked to the driver. There was a group of 75 European tourists (mostly German I was told) that were on a multi-state geocaching tour. The buses had dropped all 75 of them off at Barlow Pass so they could hike to Monte Cristo. When I told the driver that in my 40 years visiting the Mountain Loop I had never seen tour buses up here before, he asked if I knew anything about the "chamois" that were up here. When I told him I had seen some on the north end of Sheep Mountain he corrected me. He said "no not sheep, chamois/goats". I explained that Sheep Mountain is just the name and there were indeed mountain goats up there. These are the Mountain Goats that were transplanted from the Olympics. Apparently the tourists were well informed about the whole Mountain Goat/Olympic issue, and had asked the driver where they could see them. He figured if he could tell them that they were at least close to the goats, he'd get a bigger than usual tip. I can see it now. The North Cascade Grizzly Tour. See that black dot over there. Use your binoculars. There's a lot on money to be made here.

[Sky Hiker]

Grizzlies aren't as adept climbers as black bears, but they've been known to go after people who tried to escape vertically.

[Logbear]

There are some great entries about Grizzly encounters in the Lewis and Clark Journals. Armed with single shot muzzleloaders, they quickly learned to have at least 2 men when pursuing Grizzlies. Lewis's dog Seaman spent many nights barking all night which kept Grizzlies out of camp. Not to be too graphic, but when the expedition learned that the Grizzly didn't climb trees, the method of killing them was for the man to climb a tree (with your gun loaded). When the Grizzly stood at the bottom of the tree and looked up and opened his mouth, that's when they'd shoot, right down the mouth. Head shots didn't work because of the thick muscle surrounding the skull. Body shots were pretty useless. One bear had been hit 11 times with several shots through the lungs and heart. He was finally stopped when a shot broke it's shoulder. There were several exciting encounters with Grizzlies but no one on the expedition was ever hurt by a Grizzly. The Journals mention grizzlies on the trip west, but they aren't mentioned much if any on the homeward part of the trip. The men just learned to avoid them.

[DadFly]

As with all politics these days the focus is too often on polarization rather than solutions. It is either "Grizzlies are coming for your children." or "Your rights do not supersede the rights of a species to exist in any place." I worked as a environmental consultant in the NW for a few years in the 80's. I made so much money I retired and have not worked since. OK sorry. I was barely able to feed myself those years. Just had to put that little dig out there for those who think elitist environmentalists are just after money. I haven't met any rich environmentalists who got rich off of being an environmentalist. Still true after 40 years. So back on topic, polarization in contemporary politics and the effect on bear management. It is our reality and it is the bane of both sides. The wildlife biologists I have worked with are very practical people. I will paraphrase to avoid getting anyone into hot water. A grizzly is trainable. They can be trained to fear humans but it is brutal. Bears will die. Bears inside Glacier National Park wander pretty aimlessly between feeding areas. They tend to ignore human presence with regard to choosing their route. Bears outside the park tend to fear humans and choose well hidden routes that almost always avoid human contact. Collared bears who were careless about human contact inside the park behaved differently outside the park. They wandered down riparian zones in broad daylight past small towns and grade schools without ever being detected much less predating. So the point is, bears can coexist with humans in wilderness if the management plan includes teaching bears that humans can and will kill them. I cannot speak for anyone but I feel quite comfortable saying I haven't met any bear management professionals who would disagree with this assessment in rough terms. We are the ultimate apex predator. When we apply our brain power and technologies to the problem there is not anything that can beat us. Citing the worst case scenarios as justification for not reintroducing species is rhetoric. I remember when it was "normal" to feed the bears from your car windows in Yellowstone. Those were black bears of course but the park service not cracking down on that kind of conditioning sooner is an indication of the lack of understanding at the time, - and subsequently the progress we have made in understanding bear behavior and how to decrease the frequency of problems. Citing the best case scenarios as justification for reintroducing species is also rhetoric. It is counter productive in two ways. It leaves the people most affected feeling ignored and it does not provide a methodical process for bear training and conditioning including strategic euthanizing. Humans are special. We do have the right to protect ourselves above other species. Politics are messy and of late, not functional. So I have no hope of changing any one's mind. But I put it out there in case it maybe smoothes one rough edge a little bit. Peace.

[zephyr]

I am quoting three posters. The emphasis is mine. I imagine that there are others who feel this way but are intimidated by the raucous dialogue and posturing. I feel for the folks in Central Washington.

[Pyrites]

Does anyone think B.C. is going to sign onto live trapping and removing all those bears? Would it get through their public and provincial political involvement. I’ve had a job that occasionally involved taking some risk while on the payroll. I’d say no to live griz trapper. I think I’m going to the library that day.

[RumiDude]

[Logbear]

[Ski]