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Noheaperture
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PostSat Nov 12, 2022 11:23 pm 
If they come across the border naturally, so be it. But if thereís a reintroduction, Iím all for poaching. devilsmile.gif Iíll always be in support of conservation and the balance of an ecosystem, but honestly, when someone does get mauled or they get into a ranchers cattle, itís dead anyways so why not leave the giant garbage disposals to the north where they roam in abundance and not waste tax dollars?

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Eric Hansen
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PostSun Nov 13, 2022 7:00 am 
Hi Schroder, Your comment about grizzly being on Stetattle Ridge got me thinking. Have there been tracks, or meadow diggings?

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Malachai Constant
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PostSun Nov 13, 2022 7:19 am 
Pretty sure we saw Grizz tracks at Luna Pass, or a world record blackie.

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altasnob
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PostSun Nov 13, 2022 8:13 am 
Anne Elk wrote:
Given the population explosion around here these last 20+ years and the increased popularity of the backcountry, it would be best to leave well enough alone
Fair point. There are too many people in Washington for grizzly bears. But my follow up question is, at what point do we also conclude there are too many people in Idaho and Montana for grizzly bears? Idaho is currently the fastest growing state in the nation. Idaho was the second fastest growing state in the nation from 2010 to 2020. Montana's population is exploding. If we want grizzly bears to exist in the lower 48, it is inevitable that grizzlies will have to be in areas near large population areas. If we don't want grizzlies in areas like the North Cascades (which are remote as wilderness areas in the lower 48 go) then where do we want them? No where?

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Snowshovel
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PostSun Nov 13, 2022 8:19 am 
In ten years Idaho is projected to have the population king county has right now. https://idahoatwork.com/2022/05/03/idaho-population-projected-to-top-2-million-by-2031/amp/

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Ski
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PostSun Nov 13, 2022 8:22 am 
^ Fastest growing state in the nation! People from California just can't resist that "low property taxes" thing. It's going to be interesting watching out things shake out when the old guard is outnumbered by the people they've been trash-talking about all these years. lol.gif

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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Snowshovel
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PostSun Nov 13, 2022 8:22 am 
Montana has less than 1/2 the population of King County. Some scale is required here.

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cdestroyer
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PostSun Nov 13, 2022 1:18 pm 
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Anne Elk
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PostSun Nov 13, 2022 1:58 pm 
altasnob wrote:
my follow up question is, at what point do we also conclude there are too many people in Idaho and Montana for grizzly bears? Idaho is currently the fastest growing state in the nation. Idaho was the second fastest growing state in the nation from 2010 to 2020. Montana's population is exploding. If we want grizzly bears to exist in the lower 48, it is inevitable that grizzlies will have to be in areas near large population areas.
That's just an untenable situation. Consider this factoid from the US Dept of Fish & Wildlife:
Quote:
Grizzly bears need a very large home range (50 to 300 square miles for females; 200 to 500 square miles for males), encompassing diverse forests interspersed with moist meadows and grasslands in or near mountains. In the spring, bears usually range at lower elevations and go to higher altitudes for winter hibernation.
Also consider that with our warming climate, they're going to have decreased foraging opportunities. I saw some evergreen huckleberries this year that didn't get enough water and were shriveled on the branches. I don't think the proponents have thought this idea through sufficiently.

"There are yahoos out there. Itís why we canít have nice things." - Tom Mahood
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grannyhiker
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PostSun Nov 13, 2022 3:55 pm 
There was a push by NCNP in the late 1980s to reintrduce the griz. At that time we were assured that they were just going to encourage Canadian griz to wander down here; no transplanting of griz would ever happen. Obviously, things have changed! My concern is that transplanted griz will be traumatized by their experience (how would you like to wake up in a strange place hundreds of miles from home?) and attack everyone in sight. While I can no longer get out there, I have children and grandchildren who do.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view.--E.Abbey
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Sculpin
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PostSun Nov 13, 2022 4:16 pm 
kiliki wrote:
These are not my beloved Katmai bears who are stuffed full of salmon and will just roll their eyes at you and keep walking if they meet you on a trail.
Anne Elk wrote:
decreased foraging opportunities
We really don't know how much of a threat to hikers North Cascades grizzlies would turn out to be. The most dangerous grizzlies live where there is only big game for food and not much of that. In comparison, the North Cascades are rich in food resources. It may well be that the grizzlies adapt to the Cascades environment by becoming more gracile and depending much more on food sources other than game animals (and us), just like our local black bears. I wish I had an image of the monster black bear I saw feeding on a sheep in northwestern Colorado, but it all happened too fast. It was by far the biggest and scariest bear - its entire head was coated in blood - I have ever seen (I've seen a few grizzlies in the Rockies). It really gave me perspective on the dangers posed by bears. It's not the species so much as what it eats.

Between every two pines is a doorway to the new world. - John Muir

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altasnob
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PostSun Nov 13, 2022 4:32 pm 
grannyhiker wrote:
There was a push by NCNP in the late 1980s to reintrduce the griz. At that time we were assured that they were just going to encourage Canadian griz to wander down here; no transplanting of griz would ever happen. Obviously, things have changed!
I think the problem with just hoping they wander down from Canada is that Canada is doing their best to kill off any grizzlies anywhere remotely close to the North Cascades. Also, people say the North Cascades is too crowded for grizzlies but forget there is 2.5 million living in Vancouver, BC, with grizzlies in all the areas these millions of people recreate. Also, since grizzlies are listed as endangered, our government has a duty under the Endangered Species Act to seek out suitable habitat for the endangered species to recover. And they have identified the North Cascades as the best habitat in the lower 48 that doesn't already have grizzlies. I don't understand why people are so afraid of hiking with grizzlies. It's not like grizzlies have stopped people from hiking in the Beartooths, Wind Rivers and other places in the Northern Rockies with grizzlies. Grizzly attacks are exceptionally rare in these locations.

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Snowshovel
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PostSun Nov 13, 2022 4:38 pm 
Why do you say BC is killing off grizzly bears?

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altasnob
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PostSun Nov 13, 2022 6:45 pm 
Snowshovel wrote:
Why do you say BC is killing off grizzly bears?
Canada, and British Columbia in particular, has all the same problems as Washington. Too many people, too many people who want to live far from cities in the forests, too many roads, too much logging. Everything I have read on this topic suggests there is no way grizzlies will naturally repopulate Washington. For one, like that map you posted says, the grizzly population in SW British Columbia is on life support. There are only six known grizzly bears in the "North Cascades" part of British Columbia, which is where the bears would be coming from. Canada doesn't have wilderness areas. They have crown land. And unlike wilderness, logging occurs on crown land. Just play around with google maps. As you move north from the North Cascades in Washington it doesn't take long before you hit logging lands in Canada. Cathedral Peak in Washington is one of the most remote peaks in the state. Where as just across the border there is a road into a private hiking lodge. The impression I get from Canada, in general, is it is so vast, with relatively low population density, that they don't really care about environmental preservation. To have any chance of natural migration to Washington you would need to build wildlife overpasses over Canada highway 1, 3, and 5. Canada is not going to do this. Here's some stuff from Conservation Northwest:
Quote:
"There aren't any Canadian bear posses coming to the rescue" without human intervention, said Joe Scott of Conservation Northwest, a Washington-based environmental group that's been working on the issue for decades. "It's clear that grizzly bears are not going to come back on their own to the Cascades."
Quote:
Without putting the grizzly bear recovery plan in place, there's little chance the animals would repopulate on their own. They don't tend to travel far or take over unoccupied territory said Chris Servheen, the coordinator for grizzly bear recovery for the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service
https://conservationnw.org/our-work/habitat/coast-range-to-cascades/

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Ski
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PostSun Nov 13, 2022 10:59 pm 
Well... perhaps it's not yet time for them to come down here. Maybe the Provincial Government of British Columbia will opt to allow the trees to grow, and then the bears will have a handy little migratory corridor. That's entirely up to the Canadians. We have wide-open, wild territory immediately south of the 49th parallel - there is no action required on our part. Let Canada deal with it. Not. Our. Problem.

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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