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Ski
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PostMon Dec 05, 2022 9:34 am 
I've repeatedly asked what is so "out of balance" in the North Cascades, and not one person has directly addressed the question with a simple answer in plain English. Instead, I am directed to a URL which is the site of some sort of "group". Not ONE person here is able to articulate EXACTLY what is so "out of balance". Rather, I am just supposed to accept at face value the argument that these animals are "necessary" to "restore the ecosystem". I'm here to tell you that is a bullsh## argument. If you are not able or capable or willing to state facts to support your argument, you do not have an argument.

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Ski
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PostMon Dec 05, 2022 9:44 am 
I guess the solution here, if indeed there is a Washington State law which prohibits bringing these animals into the State, would be to hit up Ferguson's office and ask him why he's not taking actions to enforce that statute, right? Sounds like a plan. up.gif

"I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach. I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each."
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DadFly
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PostMon Dec 05, 2022 9:44 am 
Please prove to us that things are not out of balance.

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RumiDude
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PostMon Dec 05, 2022 10:27 am 
Whenever someone asks a question and at the same time preemptively limits what they will accept as an answer, that person is not interested in listening and discussion. Instead they are interested in controlling the discussion and forcing others to choose only the asking person's alternative. This is exactly how a good portion of slight of hand tricks are performed. Be wary when they say "pick any card" because they are actually forcing you to pick the card of their choosing. All the while they are manipulating the deck to assure their why. At least in slight of hand tricks everyone knows it is a trick and intended as entertainment, even though most can't figure out how it was done. I wrote much earlier in this thread that the question of why grizzlies "need" to be reintroduced to the North Cascades ecosystem is basically one of aesthetic. The aesthetic element is even written into the Endangered Species Act itself. By way of analogy, a ship at the bottom of the ocean is in equilibrium. It is in balance with its environment. But it is not at all serving the purpose for which it was built. In the same way a ship anchored in harbor is safe but that also is not the purpose for which it was built. We need wild grizzly bears in the North Cascades ecosystem to restore some balance to how it evolved. Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."
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slabbyd
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PostMon Dec 05, 2022 10:43 am 
Logbear wrote:
The first areas to be repopulated are pretty remote. Ensawkwatch creek, Silesia creek, Rapid creek. Those kinds of places.
Sorry BUT THESE ARE NOT REMOTE PLACES. They are full of climbers in the summer. Silesia creek is directly below Twin Lakes and Winchester Mountain. Not to mention all the drainages lead into a heavily trafficked and populated part of Canada. Have the Canadians agreed to this? Do we expect bears to never descend to more temperate zones with denser food concentrations? Can you point my lazy self to documentation regarding this recovery zone? It aligns with what I've heard in the past that one plan was for reintroduction in this area with CLOSURE of ALL access roads north of 542.

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Logbear
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PostMon Dec 05, 2022 11:17 am 
Ski wrote:
Logbear wrote:
If anyone wants to read about what is out of balance in North Central Washington, they will tell you. And they'll tell you how they want to fix it. https://www.ncwfhc.org/
So... IOW: YOU are not able to articulate in a few sentences exactly what the gist of the argument is?
No, I am not able to try to explain something that I don't agree with. I thought I said it pretty simply.
Logbear wrote:
I don't think the area is "out of balance". I agree with the Alliance For the Wild Rockies. They tried to stop the Mission Project, but they lost.
Let me make this perfectly clear again. I don't think the North Central Washington area is out of balance. I don't like the Mission Project. But if someone wants to read about the claim that the area is "out of balance", read the Mission Project. Allow me to repeat myself. I don't support or agree with the Mission Project.

“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
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Logbear
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PostMon Dec 05, 2022 11:27 am 
Ski wrote:
I guess the solution here, if indeed there is a Washington State law which prohibits bringing these animals into the State, would be to hit up Ferguson's office and ask him why he's not taking actions to enforce that statute, right? Sounds like a plan. up.gif
It was explained during the Friday meeting that Washington State law forbids the State of Washington from importing Grizzlies. So Washington State won't be moving them. The agencies involved in the moving of Grizzlies are Federal Agencies.

“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
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vogtski
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PostMon Dec 05, 2022 11:46 am 
FWIW, This 30-year-old Griz report south of I-90 might be of interest. News items at the time mentioned hair samples as well, but here's the only link this caveman could find: https://archive.seattletimes.com/archive/?date=19930929&slug=1723574

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treeswarper
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PostMon Dec 05, 2022 1:24 pm 
Rumi, it isn't all or nothing. For instance, I still have to drive. I prefer to walk all I can or ride my bike because I don't want to be a total hypocrite. People on this forum go bonkers if they see a logging operation, but then whine about the lack of parking or want more parking provided at trail areas. People need to look at their own lifestyles before preaching to the people who will MOST be affected by the power of the urban areas. And don't lecture me about tax paying. I'm aware of that but it still does not legitimize forcing the less political powered folks to put up with critters, that will NOT be staying inside park boundaries, that are going to cause closure of areas, that will eventually cause some problems in nearby communities. Yeah, Newhouse did dramatize it a bit, but no more than the pro bear people do. The wolf was relocated into an area where people were against it. Folks have been pretty good at occasionally shooting a wolf and keeping quiet about it. Grizzlies are going to be more difficult to control locally. And yes, I do support illegally killing a "protected" beast if it is causing harm to my property or me. Show me how environmentally sound you are. Why the heck don't you just ban all entry into the N. Cascades NP. That includes the wildlife "studiers" who I suspect are guilty of causing the deaths of a few animals they harass by collaring and tranquilizing and moving. Keep humans out if you are serious about recovery. I think we are fairly well balanced as of now. There's still work to do but we still have to create food for people and find materials to manufacture all the electronic gizmos most of you can't survive without. I guess I must include myself as I'm using one right now. All the proclamations about how "they" will just have to put up with bears because "We" are right just widens the gap. Plus, the folks over here have been lied to about the bears. We were told way back that the bears would wander back and be allowed to increase naturally--no bears would be relocated to the area. We've done away with a lot of zoos. Why are you so intent on torturing bears? It's really selfish to cause harm to them just because you want to see one or pretend you are in a wilderness..you aren't. You've got all your electronics along to keep you safe. You've got campsites where you must camp. You must stay on the trail It isn't a wilderness at all. I'm sure driving to the trailhead is magic and causes no harm to any part of the environment, just like the roads that magically exist, and the other facilities. Continue to ignore what the bigger worries are, they'll magically go away too. Meanwhile, I'm going to WALK downtown and maybe buy a gift that is people powered. No batteries needed. Enjoy your Disney world. It really isn't like that. It never has been like that. I'm sure no bears will be harmed in the sedation, collaring, and relocating process either and they will stay inside the park boundaries and be good little Pooh Bears.

What's especially fun about sock puppets is that you can make each one unique and individual, so that they each have special characters. And they don't have to be human––animals and aliens are great possibilities
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Logbear
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PostMon Dec 05, 2022 1:48 pm 
slabbyd wrote:
Not to mention all the drainages lead into a heavily trafficked and populated part of Canada. Have the Canadians agreed to this?
Well...Some Canadians support this and some don't. Silisia creek changes it's name to Sleese Creek when it goes into Canada. Then it drains to the Vedder/Chilliwack, and then to the Fraser. Well known for it's Salmon runs. Siltation in creeks is a big issue with Salmon. On the South/Westerly exposures of what I think is called Silisia Ridge are several slides. They are visible on Google Earth and you can use the historical imagery to see the advancement of the slides. The theory is (and since there aren't any bears there to watch, there is no way to prove this) when these kinds of slides develop, Grizzly Bears would move into the area, do there digging and pooping/planting berries. The soil in these areas would then be stabilized with new growth of berries. Siltation would be reduced. There are several drainages that cross the border that are experiencing this siltation problem. There are lots of Canadians that would like to see Grizzlies upstream so it will help reduce this siltation, and there are some Canadians that just want to shoot them

“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
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RumiDude
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PostMon Dec 05, 2022 2:18 pm 
treeswarper wrote:
People on this forum go bonkers
Pot, meet Kettle.
treeswarper wrote:
And don't lecture me ...
Ditto!!! Rumi

"This is my Indian summer ... I'm far more dangerous now, because I don't care at all."

Logbear
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DadFly
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PostMon Dec 05, 2022 4:05 pm 
Ski wrote:
DadFly wrote:
I made so much money I retired and have not worked since. OK sorry. I was barely able to feed myself those years. Just had to put that little dig out there for those who think elitist environmentalists are just after money. I haven't met any rich environmentalists who got rich off of being an environmentalist.
Wow... well... I'm really sorry that you hitched your horse to the wrong wagon. I guess you weren't around for this discussion, huh?
I accomplished my goals to protect the Badger Two Medicine Area from oil and gas exploration. I worked with a lot of different people and organizations and none of them were doing anything that wasn't carefully budgeted and strategically planned for the benefit of wilderness and natural ecosystems. But if you want to believe nasty things, you go ahead and be you. As for the link to the other thread, it didn't seem any different than this thread. Its great that so many of you hold strong opinions. I support that right. But I refuse to read all of them when there are so many factual or science based resources to spend time on. But that is just my opinion.

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slabbyd
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PostMon Dec 05, 2022 4:31 pm 
Logbear wrote:
Siltation in creeks is a big issue with Salmon. On the South/Westerly exposures of what I think is called Silisia Ridge are several slides. They are visible on Google Earth and you can use the historical imagery to see the advancement of the slides. The theory is (and since there aren't any bears there to watch, there is no way to prove this) when these kinds of slides develop, Grizzly Bears would move into the area, do there digging and pooping/planting berries. The soil in these areas would then be stabilized with new growth of berries. Siltation would be reduced.
Thanks for the reply. Considering that Canada has essentially clearcut all these drainages to timberline and right up to the border, seems a bit misguided to rely on a couple bears to fix the issue. Do you have a link to any documentation on this particular recovery plan?

Bernardo
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Logbear
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PostMon Dec 05, 2022 4:50 pm 
This is a good place to start. https://parkplanning.nps.gov/projectHome.cfm?projectId=112008 There are some documents, and several links. The meeting notice place was how I found out about the meeting last Friday. When you grow tired of those documents and links and want more, just Google.

“There is no such thing as bad weather, only inappropriate clothing.” – Sir Ranulph Fiennes
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Bernardo
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PostMon Dec 05, 2022 7:09 pm 
After the many years of study, are we actually close to have a bear moved?

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